Astrogation and computers

Stormcrow's picture
Stormcrow
October 27, 2014 - 5:41pm
The Knight Hawks campaign book, p. 15, says there are basic and deluxe astrogation equipment packages. The deluxe package is supposed to let astrogators plot interstellar jumps in less time than normal. Is this time savings borne out anywhere in the rules? How much time is saved?

Page 14 says a spaceship's control panel contains speech and warning programs. I presume the warning program is Alarm. What is the speech program? Is it just an assumed interface with the computer?

Now the big question. Computers in Star Frontiers verge on the sentient. Could a computer with high-level Analysis and Astrogation programs plot an interstellar jump without input from an astrogator? Is there a reason why not, aside from a metaphysical "requires intuition computers are incapable of" gobbledegook? (Can you tell I'm not fond of that answer?)
Comments:

Ascent's picture
Ascent
October 27, 2014 - 7:14pm
Not intuition, but a human can determine more objectively what calculations may be needed or discarded. More objectively? You ask. Yes. A computer is "subjective" in the sense that it is biased by its programming. A human doesn't "intuit", but is able to make a judgment based upon imagining the effect and the results and can notice and consider variables and present solutions beyond such programming. If a computer notices a discrepency but has no means of doing anything about it in its programming, it will not be able to make a decision about it or imagine causes and thus ignores the discrepency.

I'd imagine chances are, the calculations that are taken over 100% by the computer have to do with the void because there are no variables to account for in the void. It is simply point in the direction you want to go and do the calculation. But with the real space calculations, they use the computer to verify the astrogator's first calculations so that he does not have to work them twice or even three times unless the computer contradicts him.
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bossmoss's picture
bossmoss
October 27, 2014 - 10:40pm
In my game, the level of the computer indicates its reliability in making astrogation-related calculations.  A capital ship could have a level 6 computer which is perfectly capable of making reliable calculations before a jump.  However, the average player is unlikely to have a battleship at their disposal, and is more likely to have something significantly smaller, with a computer more along the lines of level 1-3.

Trusting a level 3 computer to do your calculations is really taking your life into your hands.  Using a level 1 computer is virtually suicide.

I agree with Ascent.  The computer is primarily used to make sure the Astrogator has not made an error.  I recall this from most classic science fiction novels.

Tchklinxa's picture
Tchklinxa
October 28, 2014 - 4:50am
We have computer programs that navigate now... and both the old program & the new one now in use at work have massive limitations, & if the technician does not catch the errors one can get lost quick, there are "glitches" in the systems or errors in the mapping & the computer thinks as a crow flies which is not always the safest or quickest way to go. The programs seem to also make "assumptions" about how addresses run... so based on all that one can go on wild and stressful drives looking for the stop unless the driver is familiar with the local enough to know the computer is wrong... I imagine Space Navigation could be similarly filled with problems, also there are probably "safe" known ways and "short cuts" or alternate routes that are valued by merchants/smugglers... so a commercial program would have the major safe lanes... but maybe not so much outside of that. Just thinking about things people do in real life would have there mirror in space.
 "Never fire a laser at a mirror."

Abub's picture
Abub
October 28, 2014 - 7:45am
I let my UPFS Officers have effectively zero level in all the spacer skills.  Which means any one of them can do the job of astrogation but with no hope of making it shorter.

But I think I saw somewhere in the KH's book it basically states that having a higher quality astrogation computer really doesn't help you at all.  That it has no effect.  I'll have to look for that... perhaps it is no effect on the time it takes to plot your jump.  Does it give a situational bonus to your rolls for jumps with less preperation?
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Stormcrow's picture
Stormcrow
October 28, 2014 - 10:18am
The trouble I have with comparing Star Frontiers computers to modern GPS navigation systems is that the computers in Star Frontiers are way more advanced—though bulkier. If a level 6 program can coordinate all the traffic in a city, surely it must have a nearly sentient (I don't want to say human) understanding of what is needed, and won't make simple mistakes as a GPS route-plotter would.

For instance, modern traffic lights are very effective, but even these computerized systems cannot compare with the judgment of an actual traffic cop. A level 6 program should have the same ability to judge traffic as a traffic cop (among other simultaneous functions), not just as a traffic light. Likewise, shouldn't a computer with a level 6 Astrogation program plus a level 6 Analysis program be able to reproduce the judgment of a living astrogator? And if it could, wouldn't astrogators be out of a job? But if it can't, why not?

I'm not currently running or playing in a game of Star Frontiers, but if I were, the players would surely ask immediately, "Can't the computer do this for me?"

Abub's picture
Abub
October 28, 2014 - 10:50am
In short... because we need the PCs to be able to do things.  lol

They are like Goerge Jettson...  paid to go into work everyday and push one button.

Astrogation with a big computer.

And Strormcrow... I just started my first SF game and got that same question instantly.  

However... keep in mind... a lvl 6 computer on its own I think should be SUPER expensive and rare. I have my players on an Assult Scout now, but the game was concieved around a frigate.  Neither of these ships have computer systems that advanced... probably not even higher than lvl 3 i'm thinking but perhaps i should refresh my mind on the computer sections.  The most advanced computer on the frigate is a humanoid robot butler of sorts and i think its is like lvl 4.
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Gullwind's picture
Gullwind
October 28, 2014 - 3:14pm
I've always wondered why a level six Analysis program, which is described as being able to handle all known calculations, including theoretical math, couldn't do the jump calculations. I've always thought the jump calcs were a touch too onerous anyway. It takes longer to do the calculations than it does to make the jump!
"Rome didn't build an empire by having meetings. They did it by killing those who stood in their way."

Tchklinxa's picture
Tchklinxa
October 28, 2014 - 7:06pm
Well my understanding is the original game designer wanted the PCs to have jobs to do, the tech is there but should never over power the human element. 

I am just saying computers no matter how advanced are only as good as how they are programmed (what the program can do vs can't) and the people who operate them. Yes, these are more advanced computers but still they could be hacked, have just good enough programs and less then great operators. Thus results will vary based on the variables.

But I do understand the way it is presented in SF how one can question the jump calculations vs what a computer can do... The real issue is how different is the comp tech in SF versus our reality, just because we have certain tech now does not mean the SF Core 4 have it. I mean we went to the moon with less, what if we had figured out a way to go further right away at that lower tech level... we would be using slide rulers then. What if somehow at that level of tech we could jump ships? How much behind might be the computers then from our ability to jump? Some times tech does not progress the way we think it should. Sometimes things are conceived well before our ability to do it, or developed in strange orders. 

Also the game is a snap shot of ideas about future tech based on when it was conceived. One sci-fi series of books I have imagined a future without personal computers as computers where so huge when the author wrote. Computers all belonged to the government or corporations, as they needed whole buildings or whole floors of buildings to do what ever, and if a citizen needed to use one for personal use you had to go to the computer version of a Library, check out time on the unit and so on. I get the feeling maybe SF was more along that line of thinking.

:)


 "Never fire a laser at a mirror."

Ascent's picture
Ascent
October 29, 2014 - 6:04am
Gullwind wrote:
I've always wondered why a level six Analysis program, which is described as being able to handle all known calculations, including theoretical math, couldn't do the jump calculations. I've always thought the jump calcs were a touch too onerous anyway. It takes longer to do the calculations than it does to make the jump!
It takes longer to write a speech than it does to present it. That doesn't mean the effort is overblown.
View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write.
"It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi
"That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi
Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild)