 December 6, 2010 - 2:26pm | So, let's just get it off our chests in this thread. I actually like the ifshnits, although I've done away with their piping high pitched voices and made them more celtic-like in that regard. Mega-Corps and Cults - great campaign filler THE BAD Skill breakdowns - why can't a TechEx operate vehicles? They can repair them but once finished they can't take them for a spin to make sure the repairs are right. Ditto on security systems, only the enforcers know how to defeat/bypass etc. Makes you wonder where the systems come from in the first place... The Time Line - I don't know where to start. The writers obviously didn't either. |
 December 6, 2010 - 2:42pm | I just want to say that I in no way want to bring back the resolution system. didn't like it then and I never used it. It might make a great resolution system in a computer game as the computer could just crunch out your shot and damage but otherwise I have no use for it. skill system- there again there have been a number of fan versions over the years and currently I'm stuck on AD or Skilled Frontier from Bill Logan. Plainly, the AD system is excellent for resolutions, its old school which means combat is generally fast (not 3 hours like many new school games) and its flexible. I appreciate Shadow's comments as I'm in agreement with him and I'd like to say that my purpose in "rehabing" Zebs material is to clean up, expand and make the setting details more available and usable. Clearly, many of us still use bits and pieces from Zebs guide I just want to fix some of the problems and re-present the setting material in a way that might expand its acceptance in the community. After all it still technically has the label of canon despite the fact that the die hard Zebs haters deny it. There will never be any new canon unless some things change at WOTC (and that can be a scary thought to think about) so what wrong with rehabing the material we have? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 6, 2010 - 2:51pm | As I mentioned in the "what is canon" thread (for those joining in that haven't seen that thread), as much as I may bash the Zeb's Guide* I still consider it canon. More of a 2e canon though, as opposed to AD/KH canon. Kind of like the boxed set Basic & Expert D&D game and 4e AD&D...both are canon but not to each other.
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 December 6, 2010 - 5:32pm | Take the setting material and drop the rest of the mechanics. I used to hate the Ifshnit and Humma as portrayed in Zeb's. Then SFman redeemed the Ifshnit by a simple redrawing of them. The Humma are getting better too as we clean them up. The time line frustrates me. I want it but it has major contradictions and defects. -iggy |
December 7, 2010 - 4:00am | The only good thing I can say about the time line is that it serves as a good guide for rewriting it. By pure luck, they managed to get two events to correlate with previously published materials: 1> the first Sathar war took place before the foundation of the UPF 2> the Third Dramune war takes place during the time frame of the Dramune Run module Beyond that nothing matches up. Not even remotely. > Zebulon is discovered and settled before the sathar first appear (yet the players battle the sathar with basic knowledge about sathar in the modules). >Twenty generations of the royal Valentine family (with 200 year average human lifespans) manage to rule Clarion in a span of less than 170 years (from founding of the system to the fianl entry in the timeline). Each ruling member gave birth to an heir at 8½ years old at the most. > Nothing significant really happens after the first sathar war, with exception to the second sathar war. It's all filler material about megacorp discovered/settled systems (boring) and lead-ins to the corporate war with occasional honorable mentions of Rim participation thrown in for "flavor". Even some of the planetary descriptions are way out of whack: > Only WarTech navigators know the secret jump route to Rhianna (Alcazzar) yet the players portray members investigating the demise of a CDC mining compound that was ransacked by a Streel compound. I guess someone mind-wiped everyone at two of the largest megacorps... > Only SpaceFleet has knowledge of the secret jump route to Sundown, yet planet Starmist was discovered and explored by separate civilian teams. More mind-wiping... > The safe star route to Liberty (Snowball) is known only to Star Law, yet players find it along with members of the Clarion Royal Marines in the modules. Again, more mind-wiping... > not counting binary star systems, the map only has five unexplored systems for a referee to possibly fill in with campaign material...that doesn't exactly leave a lot of options. Looks like the stars were wiped too. Well, enough of the bad & ugly for now (see, I told you I could belt out far more than two each). I'll close this post on a positive note: THE GOOD > Zeb's manages to list the K'tsa-Kar system, originally mapped in the AD rulebooks but the listing was neglected. > A little more detail was added in the planetary statistics, and more descriptions of various UPF worlds are offered. |
 December 7, 2010 - 9:43am | > A little more detail was added in the planetary statistics, and more descriptions of various UPF worlds are offered. Ah, yes, but then they changed some the descriptions of the systems between the AD rules and Zeb's. I don't remember which ones of the top of my head (and it may have been only one), but I remember looking things up in both and finding different information.  iggy and I need to get together and just belt out the system briefs for all the systems and call it good.  Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 December 7, 2010 - 10:30am | Like it, hate it we need to take Zeb's for what it is worth. It's value starts at what it was meant to be. Zeb's was supposed to be the next step in Star Frontiers. It was only the first of three books TSR was going to publish. The other two never got done. Why? We will probably never know but let's work with what we have. Taking a que from Battletech which successfully added rules and canon and still does to this day even add to it and change how you play, even many do not like the changes many others do; so as this project moves on remember you are building on an uncomplete work which some will not like but can be something great. Keep it up. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
December 7, 2010 - 1:24pm | iggy and I need to get together and just belt out the system briefs for all the systems and call it good. Ah! Sounds like a call for me to get back into the StagGen source and "Habitable Planets for Man" and finish out a more controllable set of formula sets in spreadsheet form that we can use to put credible figures to the known systems. All part of my 3D star map efforts. Refer to: 3D starmap software TerlObar, I accept your offer for a collaborative effort. -iggy |
December 7, 2010 - 3:41pm | Ah, yes, but then they changed some the descriptions of the systems between the AD rules and Zeb's. I don't remember which ones of the top of my head (and it may have been only one), but I remember looking things up in both and finding different information. LOL, I seem to remember that now... BTW I belted out system briefs for Theseus and Truane's Star (the latter is an early historic version but can easily be translated to a more modern setting) in different projects here. The latter is in Historical Adventures (click the tab in my sig) and the former is in the House Rules Wiki project. Like it, hate it we need to take Zeb's for what it is worth. It's value starts at what it was meant to be. Zeb's was supposed to be the next step in Star Frontiers. It was only the first of three books TSR was going to publish. The other two never got done. Why? We will probably never know but let's work with what we have. Exactly. I just got this rolling for discussion purposes though, considering all the love/hate for the book I felt it would be a worthwhile thread to lump it all together. Moreso considering how the subject has popped up in several threads recently. Everyone post what they like/dislike about it. That's all it is. Yes, I count myself amongst the "haters". But I can still belt out what I like about it just as easily. Here's some more --- THE GOOD Bodycomps - I still haven't made up my mind if I want them in my campaign or not, but I like the overall idea. |
 December 7, 2010 - 4:33pm | I don't quite know If I would consider myself a hater of Zeb's guide. While I agree that there is more about it that I dislike I just mined it for what I liked and chucked what I didn't. The races were not as bad as they could have been, though I found the Osakar at the time to be the least interesting in the group, over the years I've come to like them a bit more. I ignored the high pitched voices for the ifsnit, and in my game they became the sneakiest, oftimes most underhanded group of merchants in the universe, but always willing to sell that often illegal item you desperately need. The humma have always been a favorite of mine , because at the time I gravitated towards "fighter type" characters, and Humma were just fun to play. The resolution table was completely ignored by me and I just modified everything to Alpha Dawn rules. the equipment was cool and the mentalists nicely fit into my campaign after I tweaked their abilities. As for the timeline, corporations, cadres and background stuff, I used what I wanted from it, and discarded the rest. So basically the book was more of a sourcebook for information rather then something to play, so I guess I'll always be thankful that it was released, otherwise there would be a lot more that we would have had to create on our own to keep our game interesting. "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
 December 7, 2010 - 4:50pm | > The safe star route to Liberty (Snowball) is known only to Star Law, yet players find it along with members of the Clarion Royal Marines in the modules. Again, more mind-wiping... More than you think, considering the epilogue of SFKH4 has the Mhenme launching two starships two years after they were liberated(the Eleanor Moraes II and the Osprey II), and the Belters specificially wanted atomic drive technology in exchange for their cooperation against the worms. " 'Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death." |
December 7, 2010 - 4:52pm | > A little more detail was added in the planetary statistics, and more descriptions of various UPF worlds are offered. Ah, yes, but then they changed some the descriptions of the systems between the AD rules and Zeb's. I don't remember which ones of the top of my head (and it may have been only one), but I remember looking things up in both and finding different information. iggy and I need to get together and just belt out the system briefs for all the systems and call it good. I know, for one, that ZEB's had White Light listed as a F-type star, when SFKH0's System Brief said the star was red-orange.... " 'Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death." |
