HMS Lioness

jedion357's picture
jedion357
December 13, 2009 - 11:24pm
By treaty and charter all system defense ships in the frontier carry the designation "militia".

The Royal Marines of Clarion are just cocksure enought to find this designation distasteful.
However, despite the strict interpretation of the law classifying the Royal Yacht of the monarch of Clarion as a system defense ship, no one has ever had the moxie to tell the monarchs of Clarion they could not designate their yacht HMS.

The HMS Lioness is crewed by members of the Royal Marines, who as you can imagine don't have their names drawn out of a hat.

Question is what size ship should the HMS Lioness be?

I had thought HS 4-5 and to use the yacht profiles from the dragon magazine article; either the Imp class or the nova Class

Imp Class: HS4, HP 20, ADF 3, MR 4, DCR 32, Weapons: LB & (assault rocket battery- not sure if thats an assault rocket or a rocket battery) no lifeboats

Nova Class: HS 5, HP 25, ADF 2, MR 2, DCR 35, Weapons: LC, LB, RB no lifeboats

Needless to say the monarch would have had their yacht retrofitted with a lifeboat.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!
Comments:

Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
September 10, 2014 - 8:22am
The CMS LEO is the biggest vessel they have so - 

CMS Lioness - Imp Class: HS 4, HP 20, ADF 3, MR 4, DCR 32, Weapons: LB, RB (x4) and 1 lifeboat.

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
September 18, 2014 - 9:41am
Jaxon wrote:
The CMS LEO is the biggest warship they have 

...nothing written in stone that says the Leo must be their biggest ship in the fleet. After all, the CRM captured the Dark Shadow (HS:5 freighter) early on in the module so by then they have two ships tied for "biggest".


{edited for typos}
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Malcadon's picture
Malcadon
September 18, 2014 - 1:13am
Jaxon wrote:
The CMS LEO is the biggest vessel they have so - 

CMS Lioness - Imp Class: HS 4, HP 20, ADF 3, MR 4, DCR 32, Weapons: LB, RB (x4) and 1 lifeboat.

Actually, the CMS Leo seems to be its own class of frigate. Seeing how a Leo-class Frigate is a variant to the highly popular and powerful (compared to the older Driadia- & Z'Gata classes) UPF Shimmer-class Frigate (with only the a decoy vs masking screens separating both classes), that is not bad acquisition for what is likely a well-funded militia fleet!

(You have no idea the amount of homework I did to figure that out!)

jedion357's picture
jedion357
September 18, 2014 - 3:13am
Malcadon wrote:
Jaxon wrote:
The CMS LEO is the biggest vessel they have so - 

CMS Lioness - Imp Class: HS 4, HP 20, ADF 3, MR 4, DCR 32, Weapons: LB, RB (x4) and 1 lifeboat.

Actually, the CMS Leo seems to be its own class of frigate. Seeing how a Leo-class Frigate is a variant to the highly popular and powerful (compared to the older Driadia- & Z'Gata classes) UPF Shimmer-class Frigate (with only the a decoy vs masking screens separating both classes), that is not bad acquisition for what is likely a well-funded militia fleet!

(You have no idea the amount of homework I did to figure that out!)


If you had not already earned your Star Marshal spurs you just did. Smile
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
September 19, 2014 - 6:27am
WOW! 11 varients/models!

Malcadon's picture
Malcadon
September 19, 2014 - 10:09pm
Actually... ...and ALL OFFICIAL!!Cool

Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
September 20, 2014 - 5:28am
um...the Firestarm and Perdition have the same heavy cruiser stats, Malcadon. 

Malcadon's picture
Malcadon
September 22, 2014 - 3:13am
Jaxon wrote:
um...the Firestarm and Perdition have the same heavy cruiser stats, Malcadon. 

Fixed!

Thanks!Cool

jedion357's picture
jedion357
September 22, 2014 - 6:32am
I could be wrong about this but I think that a vessel in a real world navy could effectively have different stats and yet be part of a class of vessels. They upgrade and change equipment all the time. thus you could have one UPF Frigate with grappels and another without and yet both would have been from the same class of vessel where they will pretty much conform to ADF and MR profile unless there had been refit that radically changed one or one had just gotten new shiney engines with better performance.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
September 22, 2014 - 6:57am
Yes, it would then be the same class but a different version or Mark. Like the Abrams tank. We had the M1 and the Kuwait government bought the M1A1 and we then bought the M1A2. It's the same tank but with different upgrades.

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
September 22, 2014 - 5:45pm
By canon KH there simply aren't enough warships to HAVE distinctive classes among them. According to the AD system roster there are 23 worlds (including Kawdl-Kit/K'tsa-Kar that was omitted from the list but not counting Volturnus/Zebulon). According to the rosters in the SW2 section of the KH manual, 10 of those worlds have planetary militias. Dramune is the only multi-world system that has defense for both worlds. Two of the three UPF fleets are stationed one each in Gran Quivera and Triad, with Strike Force NOVA constantly roaming via a table that places them in a world that is already defended 80% of the time. That leaves eleven completely undefended worlds.

There are fifteen total frigates in that roster, seven of which are committed to SpaceFleet. With nearly half the Frontier undefended, Space Fleet is too small of an operation to even consider distinctive classes of warships...the classification here is you are either fortunate enough to have a frigate or you are well versed in waving a white flag.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

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Malcadon's picture
Malcadon
September 23, 2014 - 3:10am
Shadow Shack wrote:
By canon KH there simply aren't enough warships to HAVE distinctive classes among them.

Yeah, but stat-wise, it makes identifying them easier, as a number of the same types of ships have drastically different arrangement of weapons, defenses, speed and maneuverability.

And yeah, the Frontier is so underpowered with warships. The militia fleets really need to supplement their weak forces with paramilitary ships -- privateers, corvettes, yachts, etc.

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
September 23, 2014 - 5:28am
Malcadon wrote:
The militia fleets really need to supplement their weak forces with paramilitary ships -- privateers, corvettes, yachts, etc.

And fighters.

I house ruled one 6-fighter squadron per population rank (L=1, M=2, and H=3) regardless of fleet or militia presence. An outpost world would be protected by whatever presence is conducting their business there (mega corp, neighboring world, etc).

Armed system ships are another feasible defense for any world (a la Traveller's "System Defense Boats"), more so considering the canon rules permit any system ship up to HS:5 to land in an atmosphere (re: the worlds that lack even an orbital station).
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Malcadon's picture
Malcadon
September 23, 2014 - 11:22am
Shadow Shack wrote:
And fighters.

I house ruled one 6-fighter squadron per population rank (L=1, M=2, and H=3) regardless of fleet or militia presence. An outpost world would be protected by whatever presence is conducting their business there (mega corp, neighboring world, etc).


I added a (non-canonical) fighter squadron to the CRM page on the SF Wiki.

iggy's picture
iggy
September 23, 2014 - 1:12pm
Shadow Shack wrote:
Armed system ships are another feasible defense for any world (a la Traveller's "System Defense Boats"), more so considering the canon rules permit any system ship up to HS:5 to land in an atmosphere (re: the worlds that lack even an orbital station).

I really like this observation.  We have noted elsewhere the scarcity of starship construction facilities in orbit.  I think it is safe to assume that all medium or higher population worlds have star ports planet side to support repairs of HS 5 and less ships.  Many of these star ports will also have nearby planet side construction facilities for HS 5 and less ships.  We may assume that any heavy population world has a planet side construction facility.  Then we can make logical deductions for worlds with less than a heavy population. 
-iggy

Ascent's picture
Ascent
September 25, 2014 - 6:43am
If you take the space shuttles as any indicator, 30 years seems to be about the max for safe usage of ships. Since frontier history covers hundreds of years, it can be safely assumed that new models come out at least every 10 years, though likely more frequently even than that. I would think new models would appear fairly frequently. I think each manufacturer would likely develop a new model in a particular type of ship every 3 years or so.

Thus, if there are 3 manufactures, it is likely that it will average out to a new model every year. Just look at large ship building. They may build just 5-10 ships in a particular model, and then the next order will be a little different. If war is taking place, they may provide as many as 20 ships in a particular model, but not much more. The consumers will always want something more added, or the needs of the times will take precedence.
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Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
September 25, 2014 - 7:02am
If war is taking place, they may provide as many as 20 ships in a particular model, but not much more. 

Yes, unless the point is mass production. Look at WWII - Liberty Ships, Carrier, Destroyers, submarines, etc. 

Liberty Ships for example, Eighteen American shipyards built 2,710 Libertys between 1941 and 1945, easily the largest number of ships produced to a single design. Now, granted the 18 shipyards probably made the ships a little different from one shipyard to another. But still, that's like 100 ships.

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
September 26, 2014 - 1:51am
Ascent wrote:
Thus, if there are 3 manufactures, it is likely that it will average out to a new model every year. Just look at large ship building. They may build just 5-10 ships in a particular model, and then the next order will be a little different.

With 15-30 ships belted out each year, Space Fleet shouldn't be that small. There aren't even 15 assault scouts listed in the SW2 roster for the UPF, and those are the ships that the UPF has amassed since SW1 (80 year gap if you want to go by the Zeb guideline, and a scout takes 90 days to belt out).

Simply put, ships are uncommon in SF. Unlike Star Wars, where the frequency and cost of ships can be related with "10,000?!? We could practically get our own ship for that!" --- SF is  far cry from that level. 10K won't even get you a single chemical drive for a ship. They're expensive, even for a smaller craft.

Simple fact is there are only two SCCs capable of belting out ships of any caliber, and three more that can belt out civilian star ships up to HS:14/warships up to HS:6 at an inflated price. Four more centers are restricted to system ships (which begs the question: how do those system ships get to other 5 systems that have no SCC?).

Page 9 details the waiting period for available construction space, suggesting that this is a one-at-a-time process and not mass production.


{EDITED --- number of systems, I initially had the figure representing the number of worlds...obviously multi-world systems would receive system ships produced on the "other world" in system.}
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
September 25, 2014 - 1:52pm
Teaser Alert:  I agree with Shadow Shack that ships are rare and there will be an article in the upcoming issue of the Frontier Explorer on exactly that topic and an analyis of just how many ships the Frontiers construction centers can support based on the rules as stated and the implications thereof.
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Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
September 26, 2014 - 7:14am
Thanks TerlObar!

Four more centers are restricted to system ships (which begs the question: how do those system ships get to other 5 systems that have no SCC?).

1) Yes but I saw in Star Frontiersman (#9-p28) the Jump Tug, that can take those system ships to those other systems. 
2) Also, could you take a freighter system ship (say HS 5) and have it carried by a large TT-456 (HS 12) or a Star Blazer (HS 17)?

Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
September 26, 2014 - 7:15am
Also, what about having your ship built as a system ship, tugged to another SCC (I or II) and then have Ion or Atomic engines put in it?

TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
September 26, 2014 - 6:07pm
That's exactly the idea behind my making the Jump Tug, to move those system ships from the SCCs to the systems without them.  I also suspect that in reality, most planets have some sort of ground based construction capabilities for building small system ships and shuttles.  Although personally I like some of the implications if they don't. 

And I totally left out commenting about moving system ships from the SCCs to the systems that need them in my article.  Time for a revision (once I get it back from the editor.)
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Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
September 27, 2014 - 2:07am
Well house rules permit a lot of possibilities that canon does not. I was merely quoting canon. Despite my house rules, I still toe the line concerning space ship frequencies...meaning like the few SCCs out there that can make them, they're not common. Lots of ships simply mandates lots of support centers, and I feel the Frontier is far too young to have grown that much in the 111 Federation Years that even Zeb's spells out (and further makes the mistake of populating damn near every system Innocent ).

Alas, I too have incorporated jump tugs (an idea I plagiarized from Traveller...they have jump tugs to move their system defense boats around). And yes, any ship that can fit in the hold of a frieghter can be ferried off to other systems as well. I also permit ground based system ship construction/support, up to the canon atmospheric max HS:5 ratings. The difference being an orbital Class3 SCC can service star ships --- meaning they can make berth for repairs (although they're S.O.L. for fuel and engine parts) but the SCC can only construct system ships (of any size). Then again, I also have Shat Rat's Salvage that can ferry parts to any destination so spacers aren't stuck without a paddle in systems without repair facilities. Shat Rat's is able to offer this service due to the uncommon nature of ships...if this was the Star Wars universe, Shat Rat's would have to be a mega-corp just to survive against all the competitors. 
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

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Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
September 27, 2014 - 9:48am
Thank you Terl and look forward to an update.

S.S. thank you for that information - I will incorporate some of that into my setting.

iggy's picture
iggy
September 27, 2014 - 4:31pm
Does Shat Rat's rebuild ships that are jump capable?  Do they do jump engine overhauls?
-iggy

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
September 27, 2014 - 9:32pm
A brief synopsis: Shat Rat's Salvage is a station orbitting Evergleem (Triad's moon) that can loosely be categorized as a Class:III SCC. They have a small fleet of freighters that scours the Frontier to claim wreckage --- along with wholesale purchases of retired vessels --- which they use to sell the individual parts (and occasionally, entire hulls). Shat Rat's keeps an ear peeled for events like the Dramune War, corporate wars, pirate raids, or even the wake of a Sathar war...in order to ramp up their inventory. Freighters can be dispatched with new parts from the neighboring Class:I SCC at Triad or they can ferry used parts from their inventory, so for a nominal fee a stranded spacer can have goods delivered to them in systems that lack any docking/repair support with but a single call on the sub-space radio.

KH prominently mentions salvage law on p.43 of the Campaign Book, and that's what gave me the idea of a fully functional salvage business via a "space ship junkyard". A player can, parts availability willing (I whipped up charts for parts availability at any given time), construct a full ship of any type in their station. The station also has numerous shops on the commercial deck offering refurbished items like communications equipment, computers, etc but the big nuts & bolts items like drives, weaponry, hull plating, support beams, workpods etc are in the main "yard". 

The hub is a triple hub, meaning the main hub has additional hubs extending out past the ring on either side. The hub facing away from Evergleem is the docking bay, the center hub contains work bays available for lease for customer projects (players can build a full ship in these bays) along with storage of salvageable hulls that have been collected, and the third hub (facing Evergleem) is the "bone yard" of parts. Being a size III station, anything up to HS:14 can be contained...and their flagship (a size 18 freighter) moored outside the station (requiring interuption of the rotational motion when arriving or departing) is capable of transporting most hulls up to HS:12.

Overhauls can be performed in their docking bay, and they keep a fair supply of fuel on hand that they acquire from contracts with the neighboring SCC. In short, a party can acquire a ship at a small price (compared to buying/building a new one) but the ship will be comprised of predominantly older parts, and each system will have a different chance of breakdown accordingly. As such, Shat Rat ships definitely have their own unique personalities. ;)

The sticky'd threads here offer all the details:

"Fortunately" the spammers keep the ForumUp.org inactive forum auto-prune at bay...so that information isn't going anywhere.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
September 28, 2014 - 10:37am
NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
September 30, 2014 - 9:22pm
Well, I did a quick numbers crunch ...and if you exclude SCCIV and subtracting UPF and Militias, you are looking at roughly 25,000 Starships and 8,500 System Ships. (from 2 P.F. to 80 F.Y.)

If you include SCCIV, that's an additional 265,000 ships of both kinds but HS5 and below - including Yachts, Privateers and Corvettes.

Places like: Dramune, Cassidine, Truane's Star; can use their SCCIII to make System Ships and use them! They can use freighters, spaceliners, mining ships, AG ships, etc. 

The one thing I do not understand is Clarion having a SCCIII. It should have been a SCCII and Morgaine's World should have a SCCIII. Those System Ships can carry cargo and passengers to Gran Quivera and back.

Below is the HS points, the capacity of each SCC added together for 82 years.

Starships <HS5 1,239,752
Starships 422,663
System Ships 78,720


TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
October 1, 2014 - 5:19am
But that assumes you're always making new ships.  You forgot that all ships have to go into SCCs for 1d10+HS days of maintenance every year.  After you have a few hundred ships flying around they start to eat up the available space and you can't make new ones.  The numbers are actually much, much lower than that.  In fact, assuming a reasonable distribution, they can only support less than 2000 ships over the entire Frontier with the rules as written. (Details in my upcoming article.)
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Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
October 1, 2014 - 5:42am
LOL, yes but that is based on one ring! Several SCCs have multiple class 6 stations - Gran Quivera has I think 8.

These additional SCC stations were not included so, they can accommodate the maintenance. Cool

The numbers are from one SCC Station listed/per system, constantly producing.