 March 14, 2008 - 7:33pm | Hmm... This is a tough one. I think it would reveal the intent of the observed party. For example - A Vrusk in the woods sees some armed men walking around. A successful Comprehension roll might reveal that they are on a patrol, or looking for someone, or travelling back to base. We should probably post the example from the book and work from there. |
 March 14, 2008 - 8:15pm | This ability is indeed given a very abstract description. The example gives more information than the description. To help us get a start on it, allow me to put the information we have in its proper place: Comprehension. Because Vrusk have such a complicated society,
they are able to understand all sorts of social dealings. All Vrusk characters
start with a Comprehension score of 15. This score is the character's percent
chance to figure out any type of social dealing that the player himself can
not. A character's Comprehension score can be increased by
spending experience points (see IMPROVING CHARACTERS). It seems to me that this is saying that it is more of an Interpret Actions type of thing. However, the word "Comprehension" implies more the ability to infer connections in the way Adrian Monk or Charlie Crews (Life) make connections that other people completely miss. So it's more than just interpreting actions. They can identify the purpose of something and what connection something has to something else that most people would see as unrelated. Either way, it's very subjective and requires the Referee to expound specific information to the player on a successful check.Example: A Vrusk is following a Human he thinks is a spy for another company. He follows the Human into a bar and sees him talking to a group of rough-looking Yazirians, occasionally glancing over his shoulder. Then the Human hands some money to the thugs and leaves the bar. The Vrusk player is not sure what the Human was trying to do, so he tells the Referee he wants to use his Comprehension ability. If he rolls 15 or less on a d100, the Referee will tell him that the Human paid the Yazirians to attack the Vrusk if he tried to follow the Human from the bar. Scared to even try to codify this, d20 Future completely ignores this ability. This ability certainly has a unique aspect that is difficult to pin down. Nothing that helps you say "Ah ha! Now is the time to apply it!" EXCEPT in the way it is applied in the example, which is very narrow usage. |
March 14, 2008 - 8:22pm | My point was that, even worse than the Dral Lie Dection ability, there is no specific direction on when to apply this ability or on how far it stretches. |
 March 14, 2008 - 10:13pm | Honestly, I never had a problem with either Comprehension or the Dral Lie Detection, maybe I just learned from a good ref on how to deal with these kinds of situations. This sentence is the key in my mind: This score is the character's percent
chance to figure out any type of social dealing that the player himself can
not.[emphasis added] It a chance for the player to get a hint if they are stumped. It doesn't help him with technology or weapons, but with dealing with other beings.- My vrusk is accosted by a merchant in a plaza who has something the Vrusk wants to buy. Is he expected to haggle, make a single counter offer, take it or leave it? I don't know but maybe my Vrusk does. Comprehension roll. - I find myself in a high class resturant on a planet that doesn't have many Vrusk visitors. The table setting is extravagant with glasses and goblets, multiple plates, and half a dozen knives, forks and spoons. Where do I start? Comprehension roll. - I'm meeting a new species and swept into participation in some strange ceremony. How do I act? Comprehension roll (with alien modifiers of course  ).The list goes on. The point is, I allow it to be used generally for any type of social interaction where the players doen't have a clue. I also wouldn't give out a whole lot of information for any given roll and would expect them to try to come up with ideas on their own. Modifiers (up or down) can be applied based on the familiarity/strangeness of the situation/species, ability(or lack there of) to gain information rapidly by watching the environment (i.e. are others in the plaza haggling or just executing transactions, hesitate for half a second and see which fork everyon else uses, and so forth), etc. The examples I gave were ones where the player was directly involved but it could be used as well to try to understand an event that they witnessed. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
March 15, 2008 - 3:28am | The only area where I see it being important here is in the example given in the Vrusk write-up and meeting new alien races. These are rare things. The other things you mentioned could easily be determined without a role. For the haggling example, you simply attempt to haggle. If they don't want to haggle, they'll let you know. You don't need a comprehension roll to ask the Referee what your character sees people are starting with in a restaurant. If your Referee makes something as mundane as a meal important for your Vrusk to know what to start with and then refuses to give you such information without a Comprehension roll, then he is simply putting you through your paces, which could get obnoxious. Your pointing out these mundane observations seem to me to prove how little direction is provided in the book's description of Vrusk and how thoroughly unremarkable the ability really is. I think if the ability were expanded to be something more concrete and fully embracing the full range of meaning of the word "comprehension", that it will be far more useful to a Vrusk. Another thing is that all these things could easily be handled with a Logic or Intuition roll. I see nothing remarkable in it. |
 March 15, 2008 - 3:32am | Why not just make the Comprehension % into a bonus for whatever Int or Log check, instead of a separate roll to itself. The bonus could still be increased with XP, but does not require the player to choose either INT or LOG to place XP into to achieve the same results. <insert witty comment here> |
March 15, 2008 - 3:37pm | Smoot - you may be on to something there. But let's see if we can put together Comprehension as an independent ability. |
March 16, 2008 - 3:11am | Okay, well, the ability targets "social dealings" and is currently the same thing as, but weaker than a LOG or INT check. I would suggest turning it into a kind of autistic ability (mainly along the lines of Asperger syndrome or High Function Autism), which would be in line with Vrusks' obsessive focus on their employment, mute emotions, and general social disinterest. That being the case, I think broadening the definition of Comprehension here would indeed be appropriate. As I was saying before, I think it would cover the ability to infer facts from semingly unreleated items. This would not fall under Intuition, as intuition is the ability of having hunches and making a leap in a break of logic. The ability to comprehend on the level I'm suggestion is a kind of hyper-logic. Monk is an excellent example. He's not particularly intelligent in most things, but when it comes to comprehending behavioral and contextual puzzles, he's on the next plain. However, in all this, I am still only seeing it as a bonus to Logic under puzzling situations. This annoys me. I, like Imperial Lord, would like to see this as an independent ability. We kept from turning the Dral ability into a bonus to opposed checks (I didn't press it because I realized that the way a person normally detects a lie is by asking narrowing questions, which can easily be roleplayed, whereas the Dral ability picks up on the deception as it's happening), so it would be a shame to fall back on bonuses as the Vrusk ability. |
March 16, 2008 - 3:44am | That last post sounds like a broken record, but I can't seem to make it more concrete. It's no wonder d20 dumped the ability altogether. I would like to propose something drastic. Considering the ineffectiveness of this ability, I suggest we make it a simple bonus to logic in puzzling situations, and then due to the Vrusk's lackluster presentation, we add the Stability mechanic from d20, giving them a more useable and competitive edge. |
March 16, 2008 - 8:48am | Rather than focus on mechanics, let's try to explain what Comprehension is, first. I would say that this ability can have a similar structure to detect deception. However, we can, if we wish, broaden it beyond conversation. The patrol example above is a possibility. I think that Comprehension is, in many ways, a kind of Detect Intent. Or, it can be restricted to only conversations. But that would go against the example in the book. |
March 16, 2008 - 9:15am | Well, I guess that would look something like this: Comprehension. Because Vrusk have such a complicated society,
they are able to understand all sorts of social dealings. By
paying attention, the Vrusk may identify the meaning of a puzzling statement, action, group of actions, or the relationship between seemingly unrelated items. The Vrusk has a
15% chance, plus modifiers, to determine the meaning of items, words, and actions with direct observation in their context. This may be improved with experience
points. When the player requests to comprehend, the Referee makes
the roll in secret. If successful, the Referee informs the player what the meaning of those things are only in so far as those things can be connected without further indicators. Example: A Vrusk is following a Human he thinks is a spy for another company. He follows the Human into a bar and sees him talking to a group of rough-looking Yazirians, occasionally glancing over his shoulder. Then the Human hands some money to the thugs and leaves the bar. The Vrusk player is not sure what the Human was trying to do, so he tells the Referee he wants to use his Comprehension ability. If he rolls 15 or less on a d100, the Referee will tell him that the Human paid the Yazirians to attack the Vrusk if he tried to follow the Human from the bar. |
 March 31, 2008 - 6:36pm | Wasn't there a good description in Dune, by Frank Herbert? It's late here and i dont have access to the book, but I think that dialogue/ description nailed it on the head. Another good source for definition would be feudal Japan where they took this to an art. Again, the reference books are not handy. I'll look out in the next day or so and comment. |
 April 26, 2008 - 4:04pm | There is a similar Advantage in GURPS called Cultural Adaptibility, for anyone who has access to either Compendium I or GURPS:Aliens. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
