 January 23, 2008 - 9:31am | To save space on some of my research ships I was thinking of adding grapples and mounts on both atomo shuttle craft and other space only craft. What are your thoughts about the following: Atmosphere capable shuttles - Cost of the mounts + adjoining airlocks (need them on the shuttle and main ship) Non-atmo shuttles - Cost of the mounts + adjoining airlocks (need them on the shuttle and main ship) What min / max requirements should there be? |
 January 23, 2008 - 7:31pm | I think is should be some what based on the size of the ship and shuttle you plan on having docked. I can't see a HS 5 ship needing a shuttle bigger than a HS 2 docked to it's hull. And some of the bigger ships might have the space to allow more than 1 shuttle. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
January 24, 2008 - 6:53am | Good point. What about the stress on the connectors between ships during acceleration deceleration and turning? |
 January 24, 2008 - 8:11am | big clamps or some kind of locks that would extend from the main ship and lock into ports on the shuttle hull. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
January 25, 2008 - 9:39pm | Good point. What about the stress on the connectors between ships during acceleration deceleration and turning? I don't think there'd be any docking during turns manuvers. And wouldn't any acceleration or deceleration by the shuttle be cancelled once the docking arms lock on to it? It would be just like regular grapples, only unlike trying to capture an enemy ship the shuttle would assist with the docking. This should minimize the stress on the connectors to some extent, unless they're trying to dock with a hostile shuttle. And maybe the connectors can be rated for a certain size. If you have docking arms rated for a HS 2 shuttle, a HS 3 shuttle might be a little too taxing for it to handle. You could have a failure percentage rate for every HS larger than the docking arms can handle, so just never try to dock to a HS 4 ship with arms rated for HS 1 fighters. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
January 25, 2008 - 11:41pm | Here is an incomplete deckplan I started. It is supposed to be the primary access deck for 4 large shuttles or cutters. While the mother-ship decks are stacked vertically, the cutters are horizontal. The large black circles are supposed to be the noses of the cutters. The black lines that box everything in represents the deck area above and below the docking sections.  My insperation for this is the cover art from the Knight Hawks Remastered pdf. I evision alot of EVA work when they are released and reattached to to the ship. Here is the Cutter.  Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
 January 27, 2008 - 1:56pm | What about the stress on the connectors between ships during acceleration deceleration and turning? As long as we're not talking about reentry, or accelerating quickly out of a high gravity field (trying to escape a black hole or leaving low orbit), I really don't see it being a big problem in space. The couplings could include fuel lines anyway, that allow the docked vessel to fire its engines at the same time the larger vessel does, until everything is up to speed and acceleration stresses are no longer a factor. - Rich
"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." - Albert Einstein |
January 29, 2008 - 7:13am | Your points make sense Sargonarhes and RichTrickey. :-D Rum Rogue, that is "EVA"? |
January 29, 2008 - 12:33pm | Extra Vehicular Activity. Working in space. The idea behind the ship is that it is an exploration vessel. In order to use one of the shuttles, I envision a small crew of people and robots, or a couple of maintenance pods, working around the shuttles to make sure safety clamps and umbilical are safely disconnected/connected. Then the shuttle will be guided out of its berth. To reattach, umbilical's will be manually placed, then it will be reeled in. Then the crew will make sure clamps and other safeties are in place. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
 January 29, 2008 - 3:37pm | I use angular docking portals. Everything is automatically plugged in hooked up, and locked down with no EVA of any kind. I ran this on a solo adventure of a single crew freighter. This person had to do things on their own. We conferred to make systems and equipment so a single person can operate a ship. All in all, the task is very taxing when you get to about hull-size 8-10 I don't remember the exact hull-size where it becomes very difficult to do everything by ones self. |
 January 30, 2008 - 7:14pm | Here's my question... What about the offensive purposes of attaching to the hull of a ship. Like the old boarding parties at sea. You latch onto the ship, blow a hole through the hull and badda bing badda bang you have yourself a breach to take over the ship. Not to mention the crew inside is going to be experiencing some massive amounts of atmosphere loss. ????????????????????????????? Confucious Says: Man with one chopstick go hungry. Man who eat many prunes get good run for money. Man who live in glass house should change clothes in basement. |
January 30, 2008 - 8:38pm | I am not sure what to say to this one. But, if I am going into combat with intentions of boarding I wouldn't want the enemy ship to be decompressing in my face even with a spacesuit. It's just the thought of debris flying out at me at a possible thousand miles an hour, or even faster, scares the hell out of me. By the way I am looking for a "Well,don't be there" kinda response. Just one question, is it a military ship or a civilian ship? The difference is like night and day. |
January 30, 2008 - 9:13pm | Here's my question... What about the offensive purposes of attaching to the hull of a ship. Like the old boarding parties at sea. You latch onto the ship, blow a hole through the hull and badda bing badda bang you have yourself a breach to take over the ship. Not to mention the crew inside is going to be experiencing some massive amounts of atmosphere loss. ????????????????????????????? I like! Reminds me of Wing Commander when they took that frighter with grapples, hook on and blew a holein the side. LOVE IT! In Basically Speaking http://starfrontiers.us/gameroom we board ships all day, sometimes we even us the hatches. LOL I am not sure what to say to this one. But, if I am going into combat
with intentions of boarding I wouldn't want the enemy ship to be
decompressing in my face even with a spacesuit. It's just the thought
of debris flying out at me at a possible thousand miles an hour, or
even faster, scares the hell out of me. By the way I am looking for a "Well,don't be there" kinda response. Just one question, is it a military ship or a civilian ship? The difference is like night and day. Good point. Set the explosive, get out of the way, bust a move. done and done. :-D I would really like someone to tell me the diff between mil and civ ships.... I just think that Corps in SF are huge, have money and LOTS of research. They can make anything. If fact, the UPF buys from them all the time. ...just a thought. |
January 31, 2008 - 8:54pm | Here's my question... What about the offensive purposes of attaching to the hull of a ship. Like the old boarding parties at sea. You latch onto the ship, blow a hole through the hull and badda bing badda bang you have yourself a breach to take over the ship. Not to mention the crew inside is going to be experiencing some massive amounts of atmosphere loss. ????????????????????????????? A breech pod, like the ones used in Babylon 5. I've been thinking about those myself and wondered if a launch can be made to be such a vehicle. I don't think you're going to get a breech pod on a hull of a ship that's under power and manuvering like hell to avoid this kind of attack. That's why a launch once a ship has been disabled, also some ships with marines onboard can have several for boarding actions. Once attatched a cutting laser can burn it's way through the hull, then a problem may occur. If the ship being boarded depressurised, once the breech pod cuts it's way in the best thing they could do is let the pods air pressure carry some grenades into the ship. But if the ship has pressure if the defenders can get a grenade into the pod first, there won't be enough left of the marines to fill a body bag. Powered armor marines can fix that problem however. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
 February 1, 2008 - 2:28am | I've previously thought about this problem, and what it requires is two chambered assault craft. The initial chamber contains an automated system which will deploy into the penetrated ship and operate a defence system. This would allow the assault team time to enter the ship without being grenaded before they assault the ship. the defence system could be a couple of automatic machine guns firing in predefined arcs to deploying robotic gun platforms; that's upto the GM. |
February 1, 2008 - 10:50am | Perhaps spruce up the KH Boardgame and allow boarding actions. Breach shuttles would be HS 1 or 2? How many troops? I imagine they would accelerate Real Quick Like (TM) towards the target, dodging beam weapons and a desperate lauch of rocket batteries...hit the hull with a THUD! Neat idea for Refer to: Knight Hawks Revised Damage Table |
February 1, 2008 - 11:00am | The as yet overlooked flaw in "landing" a small craft on an enemies larger craft is this: You land your "breach shuttle" on my hull, I fire up my electron, proton or statis (EMP anyone?) screen, your ships computers and electronics are probably fried. Game over. - Rich
"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." - Albert Einstein |
February 1, 2008 - 11:31am | The as yet overlooked flaw in "landing" a small craft on an enemies larger craft is this: You land your "breach shuttle" on my hull, I fire up my electron, proton or statis (EMP anyone?) screen, your ships computers and electronics are probably fried. Game over. Nice counter-tatic. So I need to take those defenses out before I board. -OR- Insulate my shuttle.  How far from the ships hull does a Electron, Proton or Statis screen emit? What would happen to a shuttle that flew through one? |
February 1, 2008 - 12:30pm | How far from the ships hull does a Electron, Proton or Statis screen emit? What would happen to a shuttle that flew through one? In my game, I ruled that they are basically "skin tight" on the ships, and generally 2 or 3 meters thick. The field can account for the small "holes" needed to fire weapons out of, but flying a shuttle, or even a workpod, out of a bay, or even a surface mount in this case, would require the screen be lowered for a few moments. Whenever new exterior equipment is added to a ship, I make the PCs recalibrate the screens , or fry out the electronics in that equipment the first time they use them, so in my game, it's safe to say that any enemy breach shuttle, or an enemy workpod being used "offensively" will not be accounted for by the screen and will be subject to any negative effects of being within it. I don't have hard and fast rules for it, since it hasn't been an issue so far, except in the case of a PC or other creature being within a field that is active, in which case I impose 2d10 damage per turn. A PC or creature who is within a screen's area of effect as it is engaged gets a basic RS check to get clear with no damage. - Rich
"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." - Albert Einstein |
February 2, 2008 - 5:05pm | Once the breech pod is on your hull it's too late to use any screens. They can use shaped charges to blow a hole in your hull, and odds are the crew of the breech pods will be shielded from any damage by their pods hull. A better defence might be a reactive armor layer underneath your outer hull. Countering any shaped charge with a opposite force. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
February 2, 2008 - 9:40pm | What about a circle cutting laser just inside the round hatch extender? Once the hull is breached, a solider can push the carved out metal back inside the enemy ship (and maybe use it for cover).  Or this nifty Megatron Pink Laser Cutter Pistol (MPLCP).  |
February 3, 2008 - 10:21am | W00t, I like your idea. What about a laser torch from the game it's self. There rules to it's use some where in the books. Just mount one or two of them into a rotating ring and cut a hole into the hull. I can see the "breech pod" having this ring in a extendable cable or arm/boom over 20 meter to the hull and start cutting or have it offset to one side of the pod. And, the pod moves over when hole is made. Here is the rule from KH: Rather than enter through an airlock, boarders can make their own entrances with explosives or laser power torches. If explosives are used, consider a ship's hull to have 200 + 2d100 structural points. The referee should describe the ship's hull in detail to the boarders, so they can decide where to enter. The referee is the final judge of where the attackers' holes actually break into the ship. If the ship has skin sensors or outside cameras, the crew will know where the attack is coming from and can prepare to defend the ship.Here is the laser powertorch rule from KH: Laser Powertorch The Laser Powertorch (LPT) is designed to cut holes through the heavy metal hatches and hulls of enemy ships so troops can board. An LPT will cut a slash 1 meter long in a ship's hull in one turn; a hole 1 meter square could be made in four turns. An LPT is powered by a special power backpack that holds 300 SEU. This backpack is so heavy it can be used only in a weight less environment. The torch uses 30 SEU per turn. When not cutting metal, an LPT can be used as a laser rifle which causes 20d10 of damage with a successful hit. There is no variable power setting. A character using an LPT as a weapon can use his Beam Weapon skill as a modifier. Because the LPT is not designed to be a weapon, however, the character can add only +5 per skill level to his chance to chance to hit, instead of the normal +10. An LPT is designed for coning a surface that is close to the tool, so it is not very effective as a long range weapon. The ranges for the LPT as a laser rifle are 10/20/40/60/100. |
February 3, 2008 - 10:39am | Gilbert, great post, made me think of this.... I would like to see KH board-game including Boarding Actions and Grappling. Breach Pods would be slow, chemical drives and could be carried on or attached to HS 5 ships or greater. Maybe a new ship, HS4 called the Breacher. :-D So the Damage Table could include external hits to shuttles, lifeboats and the like. (Off Topic: Like AD should cover hitting equipment carried by NPC's and PC's) Also.... Some of us are working on enhancing the KH Damage Table (DT). One of my thoughts is populating ships with crew (no PC's or using Skills). The DT could have effects on crew, perhaps even assign crew responsibilities. Possibilities could be :
I'm looking for spice in the game! ;-) |
February 3, 2008 - 11:48am | From KH rule book: |
February 3, 2008 - 1:18pm | Well I was speaking off if the breech pod's power was knocked out by a screen after all then the marines are either going to have to use a power torch or shaped charges. Once inside the ship however, you've already left the ship's pressure intact with the breech shuttle. So now do you and the ship's defenders risk the hull with ranged weapons, although a hull breech from an auto rifle seems unlikely. Or does it go into close combat and every one gets to use those knives, swords and axes they've always wanted to use? Ends up looking like a scene out of Ice Pirates or Legend of Galactic Heroes, with people moveing around inside a ship in armored suits with battle axes. I think it happens in the Lensman books like that as well. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
February 3, 2008 - 1:42pm | You guys are funny. The hull of a space ship is not made of wet paper. Last I checked it was made out of a armored hull. A hull has 200 + 2d100 structural points per square meter. So, if you plan on using portable rockets or a big damage weapon it won't happen immediately. SO, in this case laser pistols or rifles could be used, also, gyro jets and auto weapons. I would bring in heavy weapons that would just cause to much damage to the hull at one time. However, in a limited use they would be handy in a tight spot. And as far as the pressure, here is the rule that states:
Most starships require all passengers to don spacesuits before a fight, and then depressurize the interior of the ship. This prevents violent decompression due to battle damage or boarding attempt. |
February 3, 2008 - 3:07pm | You guys are funny. The hull of a space ship is not made of wet paper. Last I checked it was made out of a armored hull. A hull has 200 + 2d100 structural points per square meter. So, if you plan on using portable rockets or a big damage weapon it won't happen immediately. SO, in this case laser pistols or rifles could be used, also, gyro jets and auto weapons. I would bring in heavy weapons that would just cause to much damage to the hull at one time. However, in a limited use they would be handy in a tight spot. That's why I suggested the appendage/hatch that extended from the shuttle/breach pod would have a special cutting laser. Unless the ship has skin sensors I doubt there would be a part waiting inside for the attackers. Maybe.  In the case of kidnapping, the local militia or UPF would want to keep ppl alive on the ship so they wouldn't blast it open but instead disable the engines and weapon systems. So, how could KH board-game include this type of tactic? |
February 3, 2008 - 3:18pm | You guys are funny. The hull of a space ship is not made of wet paper. Last I checked it was made out of a armored hull. A hull has 200 + 2d100 structural points per square meter. So, if you plan on using portable rockets or a big damage weapon it won't happen immediately. SO, in this case laser pistols or rifles could be used, also, gyro jets and auto weapons. I would bring in heavy weapons that would just cause to much damage to the hull at one time. However, in a limited use they would be handy in a tight spot. That's why I suggested the appendage/hatch that extended from the shuttle/breach pod would have a special cutting laser. Unless the ship has skin sensors I doubt there would be a part waiting inside for the attackers. Maybe. In the case of kidnapping, the local militia or UPF would want to keep ppl alive on the ship so they wouldn't blast it open but instead disable the engines and weapon systems. So, how could KH board-game include this type of tactic? Road trip to save the president of the UPF, the admiral's daughter, or a save some scientist. This is in the realm of you hope they don't kill hostages. Yes, there would be a lot of engine debris around. |
February 3, 2008 - 5:21pm | On the subject of boarding equipment, I like the extending robot arm from Aliens moving into the ship. It can be equipped with weapons for clearing out the space before the crew enters. I also like the high power putty from the first Firefly pilot. Just apply it to the hull, activate it, and voila, instant, and even quiet, access. Also, I doubt an EMP field would be very effective against future electronics. I'm not going to get all science here, because I've given that type of discussion up, but I know that most materials even today are being produced to defend against EMPs, using biological sources. I'd imagine that 400 years from now, EMPs, and most electrical attacks will mean nothing. Disclaimer: If I'm slightly off, or if this statement sparks debate, I won't be participating. |
February 3, 2008 - 5:48pm | I also like the high power putty from the first Firefly pilot. Just apply it to the hull, activate it, and voila, instant, and even quiet, access. Zeb's introduced something like this. Plastid. A stabilized plastic acid. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
February 3, 2008 - 6:18pm | You guys are funny. The hull of a space ship is not made of wet paper. Last I checked it was made out of a armored hull. A hull has 200 + 2d100 structural points per square meter. So, if you plan on using portable rockets or a big damage weapon it won't happen immediately. SO, in this case laser pistols or rifles could be used, also, gyro jets and auto weapons. I would bring in heavy weapons that would just cause to much damage to the hull at one time. However, in a limited use they would be handy in a tight spot. And as far as the pressure, here is the rule that states: You mentioned that the hull points are 200 + 2d100 points per sq meter. That would be only 10 per square inch if you use an isolated beam or putty (There's probably some principle regarding reducing the area to damage ratio that I'm missing, so don't get offended if I'm off).
Most starships require all passengers to don spacesuits before a fight, and then depressurize the interior of the ship. This prevents violent decompression due to battle damage or boarding attempt. |
