Objects in a solar system

Anonymous's picture
Anonymous
December 14, 2007 - 2:00pm
What types of objects are in a system?

Obviously the star. Here is my list :
  1. comets
  2. asteroid belts
  3. terrestrial planets (habitable and non-habitable)
  4. jovian (gas giants)
  5. minor-planets
  6. ice planets (frozen water around an asteroid or rock)
  7. other?
cross-post from
Comments:

Anonymous's picture
Corjay (not verified)
December 14, 2007 - 2:23pm
Moons
Space debris (discarded technology, space trash, and orbiting satellites found in populated or explored systems)



Anonymous's picture
w00t (not verified)
December 14, 2007 - 2:51pm
Corjay wrote:
Moons


your saying Moons around a planet?
if they are in space would these be considered minor-planets or asteroids?

jaguar451's picture
jaguar451
December 14, 2007 - 5:45pm
Multiple stars (binary systems)

Natural only? Or: Space stations, starships, mining opperations, settlements, aliens,

Anonymous's picture
Corjay (not verified)
December 14, 2007 - 6:02pm
w00t wrote:
Corjay wrote:
Moons


your saying Moons around a planet?
if they are in space would these be considered minor-planets or asteroids?
Define "minor-planet".

A moon can be an asteroid or the result of a congealed asteroid belt, and could conceivably be inhabitable depending on special conditions, but the fact is, they act differently than planets. Planets are defined as bodies that orbit a stellar event, but moons are defined as bodies, satallites, that orbit planets. Just because they're made of the same substance doesn't mean they're classified the same way. An asteroid is made of the same stuff as the planets, but it's not a planet. The same goes for moons. Moons are made of the same stuff as asteroids and planets, but they are not planets simply because they act differently.

If you classified every planet as an asteroid, what would this tell you about the system? Likewise, if you classify every moon as a planet, what does this tell you about the system? Both would be deceptive and inspire inaccurate interpretations.

Anonymous's picture
Corjay (not verified)
December 14, 2007 - 6:05pm
By the way, it is not necessary to record objects that orbit planets at all. That information should be attached to the planet alone, not the system, so disregard my suggestion, or interpret it as a suggestion to take moons and planetary rings and orbital debris out of the whole system equation, revealing them only for specific planetary information.

Rum Rogue's picture
Rum Rogue
December 14, 2007 - 7:20pm
How about asteroids that are made of loose aggregate?

Instead of it being made of solid rock and minerals, you have a mass of basically sand and softball sized particalls that are held in a group by static charge, gravity, or slight magnetic charge.  It would be massive enough to made a radar image, but yet the mass of it would be way off compared to a solid asteroid of the same size.  Your ship would sink into it if you tried to land on it, and you could dig your way into it easier than diggin in sand at the beach.

Read about that one in of Ben Bova's books.
Time flies when your having rum.

Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time.

Sargonarhes's picture
Sargonarhes
December 14, 2007 - 11:04pm
What about rogue moons or planetary objects? I seem to remember one of the reason they dropped Pluto from planet status to dwarf planet is because they found some rock not in a fixed orbit around the sun bigger than Pluto was.
In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same.

Anonymous's picture
Corjay (not verified)
December 15, 2007 - 4:03am
The aggregate asteroid is good (and good science). Perhaps have a percentage of asteroids that are aggregate so that when a person wants to land on one, they roll to see if it's aggregate.

As for "rogue planets", the idea of a rogue planet is that it is not orbiting a sun. Neither size nor content determine a body to be a rogue planet.

Also, I don't think Pluto is classified as even a dwarf planet. It is considered a satellite of serius, which is now classified as a dwarf planet. The whole Pluto/Serius debate is all apples and oranges to me. I see them as binary.

GJD's picture
GJD
December 15, 2007 - 8:01am

Ummm... Plutos' satelite is Charon. Pluto and Charon do share a binary point, making them a double planet, but Charon still counts as Pluto's satellite as it orbits a barycenter oriented with a bias to pluto (i.e. the common point is cloer to pluto than Charon).

The new IAU definition places pluto as a Dwarf Planet, along with Eris and Ceres. Pluto failed the planet test on point 2.

(1) A planet is a celestial body that (a) is in orbit around the (or a) Sun, (b) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrosstatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape, and (c) has cleared the neighbourhood around its orbit.


(2) A "Dwarf Planet" is a celestial body that (a) is in orbit around the Sun, (b) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape [2], (c) has not cleared the neighbourhood around its orbit, and (d) is not a satellite


(3) All other objects [3], except satellites, orbiting the Sun shall be referred to collectively as "Small Solar System Bodies"


For planets you have a few possible types (classification mostly swiped from 2300ad:)

Rock: It's a rock, Jim. Desolate, airless, radiation blasted surface of , well.... rock. Might be useful for mining or weapons testing, or perhaps playing golf. Example: Mercury

Hothouse: A runaway greenhouse effect has produced massive tempratures on the planets surface. Other delightful features may include acid rain, continent sized electrical storms capable of fusing rock to glass, 600mph winds (with acid rain), crushing pressure and noxious atmospheres. Suprisingly, this is not incompatible with some suggested forms of life. Not that you'd want to ask them to a dinner party, though. Example: Venus

Garden: A wide ranging definition, but ulrimately a planet capable of supporting life unaided on it's surface. That dosent mean you could frolic naked, but you don't need an artificial environ ment (i.e. a suit or ship, to survivce. Can include worlds much colder or warmer than humans are used to, or those with stronger or weaker gravity. Example: Earth

Desert or Post Garden: Loss of atmosphere, increasing radiation and reduction of a worlds hydrosphere all result in a desertification of a planet. Thin atmosphere and low pressure and tempratures results in mater evaporating/boiling or freezing, leaving the surface arid. Atmosperic gasses may be bound up into the surface in some way to reduce the atmosphere even further. Radiation, temprature and atmospheric pressure at the surface are all too low to support life unaided, but conditions are not as hostile as on a rock or houthouse. Example: Mars

Gas Giant: A huge body, usually in the order of 10+ Earth masses, composed of mainly hydrogen and helium with some water ice and methane. The planets have non true solid surface, but are a a smooth transition from gasses at the cloud tops through liquids in the core. Some planets MAY have a pressure induced solid at their core - metallic hydrogen and diamond have been suggested, but it's not required. A subset of gas giants are known as ice giants because of the different composition of the gasses, water ice and methane and ammonia may predominate over hydrogen and helium. Ice Giants tend to be smaller than Gas Giants. Example: Jupiter (Gas Giant), Neptune (Ice Giant)

Iceball: A small, frozen world. Essentially a rock that has had an atmosphere that has frozen. Tempratures are very, very low as the planet is too far from it's parent sun to recieve much solar radiation. Example: Pluto

Brown Dwarf: Larger than a gas-giant (13-70 Jupiter masses), smaller than a star. Brown dwarves are planets that have sufficent mass to radiate due to graviatational contraction, but don't have enough mass to start the proto-steallar fusion reactions to be come a true star. The most massive objects to be classified as a planet, they may produce enough radiation to have their own life-bearing satellites. The larger masses may fuse some elements, such as Deutirium or lithium, but don't start the true fusion process until you are at somewhere around 80 Jupiter masses. Example: Gliese 229B

Exotic: Beynd these base definitions you have all sorts of exotic planets, Cthonian planets (gas giants stripped of their atmospheres), Hot Jovians, failed cores, Carbon planets, pre-garden, post garden and so on.


Anonymous's picture
Corjay (not verified)
December 15, 2007 - 8:13am
Yeah, the name "Serius" didn't sound right, but I was feeling too much like crud to do any research on the name. Thanks for the clarification.

Just one thing. You said "The new IAU definition places pluto as a Dwarf Planet" and then immediately said "Pluto failed the planet test on point 2." What does this mean? Point 2 in your list discusses dwarf planets, while point (b) for both planets and dwarf planets says the same thing. If you could clarify what you meant by "point 2", I'd appreciate it. Thanks.Smile

Sargonarhes's picture
Sargonarhes
December 15, 2007 - 9:58am
Pluto fails on #2 because it's orbit crosses over that of Neptune's. Meaning every so often Pluto is closer than Neptune. Not to mention the feild of other rocks, drebits and such they've found out beyond Pluto that it hasn't quite cleared either.
In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same.

GJD's picture
GJD
December 15, 2007 - 5:35pm

Sorry, I meant it failed to qualify as a planet since it hasn't cleared it's own orbit - there are still large amounts of other icy junk inside an out of Plutos orbit. Arguably it isn't in orbit around the sun either, it's in orbit around the barycentre with Charon, which itself is in orbit around the sun.

G.


Sam's picture
Sam
December 17, 2007 - 12:14pm
Don't forget those asteroid collections - (the Trojans?, either preceeding or following Jupiter). I think these collections are at the Legrange points. Not all planets would have such collections, but some would/could.

Rum Rogue's picture
Rum Rogue
December 17, 2007 - 12:26pm
good point Sam.

that reminds me about the Oort cloud as well.  Doesnt Pluto sometimes kick some of that into the inner solar system?
Time flies when your having rum.

Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time.

Anonymous's picture
w00t (not verified)
December 17, 2007 - 1:10pm
thx for the input.

I'm trying to balance simplicity with realism.
My table has "asteroid belt" which is only one aspect of asteroids and would seem boring/plain to have in a cool d100 random system generator!

:-)

Rum Rogue's picture
Rum Rogue
December 17, 2007 - 1:38pm
and for fans of Master of Orion: Giant Space Amoeba!


In one of my Rifts books, there is a random encounter chart for open space.  Some of which are literally random damage to the pc's ship from a distant battle.  Basically a stray laser beam hits the ship for a fraction of its normal damage.  The battle cant even be registered on scanners.
Time flies when your having rum.

Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time.

Anonymous's picture
Corjay (not verified)
December 17, 2007 - 2:16pm
Rum Rogue wrote:
good point Sam.

that reminds me about the Oort cloud as well. Doesnt Pluto sometimes kick some of that into the inner solar system?
The Oort cloud is actually almost a light year beyond Pluto. It's actually thought to be the activity of passing suns and perhaps their own Oort clouds that occasionally disturbs a long-term cometary body to begin descent toward the sun.

Sam's picture
Sam
December 18, 2007 - 8:36am
Also, don't forget the Nemisis Theory? The idea that the sun has a brown dwarf brother which dips close enough to the Oort cloud to disturb debris and send comets into inner Sol system once every 54 million years or so (I think it is 54 or 64, cannot remember). Some claim that THAT increase in Comet activity explains the periodic mass extinctions on Earth.

A distant Brown Dwarf would have to be jumped to, since it would be extremely distant -- also it would be very difficult to detect. However it could have some interesting things orbiting it ...

The giant space amoeba is always good.

Anonymous's picture
Corjay (not verified)
December 18, 2007 - 9:01am
Nemisis theory? That seems a bit far fetched (a brown dwarf in the vacinity of our solar system would be easily detected by its gravitational effect on the planets and even our sun). Do you have a link to some information on that theory?

Sargonarhes's picture
Sargonarhes
December 21, 2007 - 5:25pm
I don't know about the Nemisis theory. If they can as they claim to be able to, find brown dwarfs in other solar systems. Then another Jupiter or larger sized object out past Pluto and the Oort cloud shouldn't be like finding a needle in a hay stack. Seeing as they find these by watching the wobble of the star just use the same methods on our own Sun.
In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same.

Sam's picture
Sam
December 22, 2007 - 6:55am

It takes a long time and concerted effort to make these calculations about each individual star and as one article mentioned they havn't performed distance calculations on most of the stars we see. The brown dwarf in question may be plainly visible. Also the wobble may be detected, but as we are seeing with that new planetoid, they have to make long term observations to be sure. And at that point, just because you're pretty sure you see a wobble doesn't mean you can instantly find the culprit. It will take a lot of searching.

Paralax calculations require ploting an exact location of the star relative to extremely, extremely distant background stars/galaxies and ploting it again six months later, when the Earth is at the opposite side of its orbit. Then you can do a simple geometry formula. A lot of adjustments have to be made, of course (as the orbit is an ellipse not a circle, for example), but those are relatively minor. Then you can come up with a fairly approximate distance.

Just something to keep in mind. Astrophysicists far more capable then I are working through the concept and will make a determination one way or another.

However, for SF gaming, throughing a distant brown dwarf out towards or beyond an Oort cloud would prove very interesting. Is it the location of a secret installation? Are pseudo planets or asteroids or moons orbiting it? Was it a natural binary or an ancient rogue dwarf? Does it radiate enough heat and/or light to create its own biozone and is there a planet/planetoid in that range?


Anonymous's picture
w00t (not verified)
December 22, 2007 - 8:02am
Sam wrote:
However, for SF gaming, throughing a distant brown dwarf out towards or beyond an Oort cloud would prove very interesting. Is it the location of a secret installation? Are pseudo planets or asteroids or moons orbiting it? Was it a natural binary or an ancient rogue dwarf? Does it radiate enough heat and/or light to create its own biozone and is there a planet/planetoid in that range?


again, nice. one of the points of SF and the Random System project is to provide possibilities for your imagination. hey, that's catchy. Wink

Sundog's picture
Sundog
December 31, 2007 - 7:32pm
When I wrote a similar accessory for the Alternity game, I split up a system's components by a kind of class system. Firstly I detailed the star or stars in a system, from there I generated planets and asteroid belts or clusters*, and then each planet generated any moons or rings it might or might not have.

So, you have the primary star (or stellar-mas object such as a neutron star or black hole), any companion stars or sub-stellar objects (ie, brown dwarfs).

Then you have the planets. You can have gas giants, ice giants, water giants (conjectural), rocky planets, rocky planets with lots of water, rock/ice planets, "dwarf planets" (I went with the term planetoid), and asteroids and comets proper.
For anything smaller than, say, the Moon, I'd say just let the GM put them where they need to be, and ignore the main mass of them. Just note where clusters and belts form.

*I'm still not happy with the asteroid generation mechanic. It appears that in real life, asteroid belts remain when a big planet interdicts planet formation through orbital resonance effects. Getting that boiled to to something simple for an RPG is something I haven't quite cracked yet, but when I do it'll go in the new edition.

GJD's picture
GJD
January 1, 2008 - 4:37pm
Bear in mind that most asteroid belts as seen in popular sci-fi (qv Empire Strikes Back and Attack of the Clones) are wildly unrealistic. Anything that densely packed would have glommed together through gravitational attraction long ago. Even the most densly populated parts of the asteroid belt, or the trojans, will have a staellar density of asteroids so low that if you were standing on one, you wouldn't be able to see another one with the naked eye.

So, a realistic asteroid belt is basically a little bit denser than surrounding space, but nowhere near anything like as dense as the asteroids presented in KH or other media.

Of course, that is terribly dull for gaming purposes, as it gets rid of any opportunities for fancy flying and slamming ships into hurtling chunks of rock at fantastic speeds for fun and ptofit.

G.

Sargonarhes's picture
Sargonarhes
January 1, 2008 - 7:02pm
Oh I already figured that out. If it was so densely packed as popular sci-fi movie like to think, how could the Voyagers space probes have safely navigated them. Yeah we're pretty hard on some things in sci-fi, sometimes we'll let it slide for entertainment. But we'll still ask questions that leave people dumbfounded like.

"Why orbit Yavin? Why didn't Tarkin just have the Death Star shoot through Yavin at the rebel base?"
They'll try and answer it, but they never had to.
In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same.

Stelk's picture
Stelk
August 30, 2012 - 1:25am
Stray or Alien or Darelic craft or Tech
Cogito ergo sum; I think therefore I am.

Batty
[Blade Runner]
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.