Kick 'Em When They're Down & Boot Stomping Good Fun

jedion357's picture
jedion357
November 16, 2017 - 4:29pm
I always treat a prone melee opponent as they're stunned meaning the +20 mod for attacking from behind or a stunned opponent applies. 

Kick Em when they're down Rule is: Prone or knocked down opponent = +20% in melee combat (prone in ranged is un changed)

Boot stomping- is the idea that if youre kicking a prone opponent you can do more damage than just a punch- standing opponent is backed by air, prone opponent is back by ground. So stomping a prone opponent is double the Punch score. 

Upto 4 individuals can effectively surround a typical character and stomp them in this way but for a vrusk its 6 attackers




I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!
Comments:

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
November 16, 2017 - 5:17pm
Maybe. If you have trained in martial arts then fighting on the ground is not that big a deal. For example when you bring your boot up to stomp your other leg is vulnerable especially your knee and ankle. Should take defensive measures into account.

You can't boot stump Vrusk. Seriously they do not lie down to sleep so how are you planning on getting them on their backs to stomp them? Please remember they are as long as they are tall and with six stable legs you are not going to get them down.

Dralasites are a different story. Stomping does damage by bruising which is the circulatory system. That doesn't happen With Dralasites. Also Dralasites have skin that is much thicker than any other race. Also again with the how are you going to get a big ball to the ground to stomp him?
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

jedion357's picture
jedion357
November 16, 2017 - 5:55pm
The game has specific instances of characters being knocked prone: martials subskill- defensive throwing- breaking a hold by a martial artist automatically knocks his opponent prone and does damage equal to the punch score. Then there is the martial arts subskill nerve combat which knocks opponents out. Vrusk are not specifically excepted. Nor are dralasites. 

Those examples are off the top off my head. A new player in Crash on Voltunus argued for a bonus to attack NPCs knocked prone and the attack from behind & stunned bonus sermed most appropriate to me.

Vallid point if prone character is martial artist. Id allow him to invoke defensive throwing in that situation (with a skill check) maybe reqire an ability roll to stand up as well in same round.

Melee opponent prone is a situation ive encounter twice with the Crash on Volturnus module. Since PC are stripped of weapons the martial artist gets to shine but players are looking for any advantage they can wrangle. I thought pummelling a prone pirate by the party while the martial artist engaged upright opponents was a goid strategy and starting characters without fighting skills still managed to get some licks in.

I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
November 16, 2017 - 7:05pm
The game has specific chairs that only humans can sit in. Vrusk are too big, Dralasites need to stretch themselves out and Yazirians can not deal with armrests (they scare them).

Expanding the game into a more realistic and specific rules instead of one size fits all should be the goal.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

jedion357's picture
jedion357
November 16, 2017 - 7:20pm
rattraveller wrote:
The game has specific chairs that only humans can sit in. Vrusk are too big, Dralasites need to stretch themselves out and Yazirians can not deal with armrests (they scare them).

Expanding the game into a more realistic and specific rules instead of one size fits all should be the goal.
i dont disagree with you.

Im simply adressing these two issue. And i think all of the core 5 could be knocked down under right circumstances. And even though vrusk are always pictured with 90 degree bend at abdomen and torso i believe they can lay out flat on their belly to allow them to go prone for shooting combat. 
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

KRingway's picture
KRingway
November 18, 2017 - 2:00am
As someone who uses the other races in Zeb's Guide, I'd say also consider them when writing any new rules. Also, writing up rules that apply to each race is potentially a bit bulky for actual use unless it's streamlined enough to be practical and more useful than what we already have.

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
November 18, 2017 - 2:15am
All games have that problem of where to draw the line between realism and ease of play. Risk and Squad Leader were two old time board games about war and battles. One was very simplistic while the other really got into the differences of all the units involved.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

KRingway's picture
KRingway
November 18, 2017 - 2:44am
Yep. I'd suggest keeping at simple and as practicable as possible. I don't want have to skim through various charts when engaging with my players through a melee Foot in mouth

jedion357's picture
jedion357
November 18, 2017 - 10:21pm
I'm not hearing an arguement against applying the already existing +20 to hit a stunned opponent or one attacked from behind to an opponent knocked prone. it seems like a no brainer to me. the problem here is that i mixed two separate issues in one thread.

If I may interpret rattravellers objection its essentially against the boot stomping. and I welcome his further comment here.

and to keep going its an objection based on anatomy of the individual species.

Let me make a contention that the rules as they exist (particularly the martial arts skill)  seem to imply that a vrusk could be knocked prone. I would imagine that in a multi-species society like the frontier that martial artist would study how to apply their moves to different species, at the very least the core 4. That said they will look for methods of knocking a vrusk on his anus or off his feet. I dont have a problem with them being knocked prone I would not have a problem with a referee ruling that with 8 feet they get a saving throw against this. RS save to avoid I thing is fair. i'd even give this to the osakar as well as their 4 legs are most likely a stable platform as well perhaps the osakar are penalized 10 points on that save roll (+10).

As for the dralasites let me point out this:

page 20 expanded rules under Falling, Jumping and diving:

Alpha Dawn wrote:

If a character suffers 15 or more points of damage in a fall, he has sprained a leg. His movement speed is reduced by half. If a character suffers 25 or more points of damage, he has broken a bone or a torn muscle. The Player must roll 1d10; on 1-8, the character has broken a leg, on 9 or 10  he injured an arm. A character with a broken leg can not move until the leg is splinted, and then moves at half speed. A broken arm cannot be used. Dralasites can spend 10 minutes absorbing the old limb and growing a new one; this does not heal the damage, but does remove the penalty.

emphasis mine


I would take this cannon rule statement to indicate that bruising and breaking of limbs does occur in dralasites despite the classic blob view of them. They are elastic but the book enforces limits on this like a limb can be no less then 10 cm thick. they are not a ball but a roughly humanoid shape with stretchy limbs. so based on on the above i dont see a problem with boot stomping them.

I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

KRingway's picture
KRingway
November 19, 2017 - 12:59am
The +20 rule is good, if the opponent has no Martial Arts skill. If they do, the +20 is negated. However, that skill is only good in limited ways. So, for every other opponent involved in the stomping, the bonus starts to rise against the stomp target. This means, 2 stompers vs martial arts stompee = +10 for the attack. 3 stompers is +20 (bringing it in line with a stomp against an unskilled stompee). Perhaps it never goes above +20 if there are more stompers, as it gets crowded Wink

In this way even a skilled target would have problems defending against multiple attackers acting at the same time. That said, if you want your game to be more like a Bruce Lee film I guess you could just say that the stompee never suffers any penalties Wink

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
November 19, 2017 - 5:53am
Stunned rule is fine. If you cannot respond to an attack because you are disoriented you are an easier target. 

Vrusk have six legs so damage to one would not so them down as much as it would a two legged character. BUT a fall would not likely only impact one leg. Also their legs are structurely different from the other races bending outward so the move at more of a scuttle than a stride. For Vrusk you can say the fall of 15 points damage bruised their hip joints on one side and slows them down 50% while a 25 point fall will cause a hip dislocation which must be treated before they can move again.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

jedion357's picture
jedion357
November 19, 2017 - 5:55am
KRingway wrote:


In this way even a skilled target would have problems defending against multiple attackers acting at the same time. That said, if you want your game to be more like a Bruce Lee film I guess you could just say that the stompee never suffers any penalties Wink


For that we have w00t's cinematic martial artist article in the SFman

KRingway wrote:

The +20 rule is good, if the opponent has no Martial Arts skill. If they do, the +20 is negated. However, that skill is only good in limited ways. So, for every other opponent involved in the stomping, the bonus starts to rise against the stomp target. This means, 2 stompers vs martial arts stompee = +10 for the attack. 3 stompers is +20 (bringing it in line with a stomp against an unskilled stompee). Perhaps it never goes above +20 if there are more stompers, as it gets crowded Wink


reasonable but how about this: martial arts skill negates this unless 2 or more attackers: simple

OR- the martial artist may negate the +20 bonus against one opponent his choice.

OR: the melee rules allow a combatant to defend himself for a -15 penalty to the attacker the maritial artist simply invokes this rule automatically even from a prone position. characters without martial arts training can only defend if they are on their feet.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

jedion357's picture
jedion357
November 19, 2017 - 5:57am
rattraveller wrote:
Stunned rule is fine. If you cannot respond to an attack because you are disoriented you are an easier target. 

Vrusk have six legs so damage to one would not so them down as much as it would a two legged character. BUT a fall would not likely only impact one leg. Also their legs are structurely different from the other races bending outward so the move at more of a scuttle than a stride. For Vrusk you can say the fall of 15 points damage bruised their hip joints on one side and slows them down 50% while a 25 point fall will cause a hip dislocation which must be treated before they can move again.


Nice adaption of the original material.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
November 19, 2017 - 8:36am
jedion357 wrote:
I'm not hearing an arguement against applying the already existing +20 to hit a stunned opponent or one attacked from behind to an opponent knocked prone.

Allow me the opportunity then...Basic D&D allows for automatic success in not only hitting but killing such opponents. Re: the sleep spell, once affected you can shove a sword through their sleeping throats and kill them without rolling any dice...it even goes so far as to say they can be killed with a single blow regardless of hit points. Honestly, the concept of shoving a sonic sword up to a stunned opponent's temple and activating the blade should mandate no dice rolling.

Shooting the stunned opponent from a hundred yards, yeah...roll to hit at the minimum. Repeated stomping/kicking? The first blow should cause damage but at the same time wake them up...there might be some recovery time involved where additional blows can be taken but this should be exponential rather than any constant stomping/kicking to a limp body.
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
November 19, 2017 - 5:23pm
I believe there is a difference between stunned and unconscious. Sleeping or being rendered completely senseless gives you the chance to kill the person quickly and easily. Stunned on the over hand is more dazed, staggering and seeing stars than not able to defend yourself at all.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

jedion357's picture
jedion357
November 20, 2017 - 5:28am
The specific instance was rendered prone not stunned by the martial artist subskill. I ruled the +20 for attacking someone stunned or from behind applied. sleep spell would be overkill in this instance going quite a bit further than stunned or an attack from behind.

I'd say a dose grenade would equate to a sleep spell and then you'd have an auto hit and one hit kill. Possibly even a tangler entrapped victim.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

JCab747's picture
JCab747
November 20, 2017 - 6:05pm
KRingway wrote:
As someone who uses the other races in Zeb's Guide, I'd say also consider them when writing any new rules. Also, writing up rules that apply to each race is potentially a bit bulky for actual use unless it's streamlined enough to be practical and more useful than what we already have.


Agreed.
Joe Cabadas