Kick 'Em When They're Down & Boot Stomping Good Fun

jedion357's picture
jedion357
November 16, 2017 - 4:29pm
I always treat a prone melee opponent as they're stunned meaning the +20 mod for attacking from behind or a stunned opponent applies. 

Kick Em when they're down Rule is: Prone or knocked down opponent = +20% in melee combat (prone in ranged is un changed)

Boot stomping- is the idea that if youre kicking a prone opponent you can do more damage than just a punch- standing opponent is backed by air, prone opponent is back by ground. So stomping a prone opponent is double the Punch score. 

Upto 4 individuals can effectively surround a typical character and stomp them in this way but for a vrusk its 6 attackers




I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!
Comments:

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
November 16, 2017 - 5:17pm
Maybe. If you have trained in martial arts then fighting on the ground is not that big a deal. For example when you bring your boot up to stomp your other leg is vulnerable especially your knee and ankle. Should take defensive measures into account.

You can't boot stump Vrusk. Seriously they do not lie down to sleep so how are you planning on getting them on their backs to stomp them? Please remember they are as long as they are tall and with six stable legs you are not going to get them down.

Dralasites are a different story. Stomping does damage by bruising which is the circulatory system. That doesn't happen With Dralasites. Also Dralasites have skin that is much thicker than any other race. Also again with the how are you going to get a big ball to the ground to stomp him?
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

jedion357's picture
jedion357
November 16, 2017 - 5:55pm
The game has specific instances of characters being knocked prone: martials subskill- defensive throwing- breaking a hold by a martial artist automatically knocks his opponent prone and does damage equal to the punch score. Then there is the martial arts subskill nerve combat which knocks opponents out. Vrusk are not specifically excepted. Nor are dralasites. 

Those examples are off the top off my head. A new player in Crash on Voltunus argued for a bonus to attack NPCs knocked prone and the attack from behind & stunned bonus sermed most appropriate to me.

Vallid point if prone character is martial artist. Id allow him to invoke defensive throwing in that situation (with a skill check) maybe reqire an ability roll to stand up as well in same round.

Melee opponent prone is a situation ive encounter twice with the Crash on Volturnus module. Since PC are stripped of weapons the martial artist gets to shine but players are looking for any advantage they can wrangle. I thought pummelling a prone pirate by the party while the martial artist engaged upright opponents was a goid strategy and starting characters without fighting skills still managed to get some licks in.

I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
November 16, 2017 - 7:05pm
The game has specific chairs that only humans can sit in. Vrusk are too big, Dralasites need to stretch themselves out and Yazirians can not deal with armrests (they scare them).

Expanding the game into a more realistic and specific rules instead of one size fits all should be the goal.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

jedion357's picture
jedion357
November 16, 2017 - 7:20pm
rattraveller wrote:
The game has specific chairs that only humans can sit in. Vrusk are too big, Dralasites need to stretch themselves out and Yazirians can not deal with armrests (they scare them).

Expanding the game into a more realistic and specific rules instead of one size fits all should be the goal.
i dont disagree with you.

Im simply adressing these two issue. And i think all of the core 5 could be knocked down under right circumstances. And even though vrusk are always pictured with 90 degree bend at abdomen and torso i believe they can lay out flat on their belly to allow them to go prone for shooting combat. 
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

KRingway's picture
KRingway
November 18, 2017 - 2:00am
As someone who uses the other races in Zeb's Guide, I'd say also consider them when writing any new rules. Also, writing up rules that apply to each race is potentially a bit bulky for actual use unless it's streamlined enough to be practical and more useful than what we already have.

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
November 18, 2017 - 2:15am
All games have that problem of where to draw the line between realism and ease of play. Risk and Squad Leader were two old time board games about war and battles. One was very simplistic while the other really got into the differences of all the units involved.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

KRingway's picture
KRingway
November 18, 2017 - 2:44am
Yep. I'd suggest keeping at simple and as practicable as possible. I don't want have to skim through various charts when engaging with my players through a melee Foot in mouth

jedion357's picture
jedion357
November 18, 2017 - 10:21pm
I'm not hearing an arguement against applying the already existing +20 to hit a stunned opponent or one attacked from behind to an opponent knocked prone. it seems like a no brainer to me. the problem here is that i mixed two separate issues in one thread.

If I may interpret rattravellers objection its essentially against the boot stomping. and I welcome his further comment here.

and to keep going its an objection based on anatomy of the individual species.

Let me make a contention that the rules as they exist (particularly the martial arts skill)  seem to imply that a vrusk could be knocked prone. I would imagine that in a multi-species society like the frontier that martial artist would study how to apply their moves to different species, at the very least the core 4. That said they will look for methods of knocking a vrusk on his anus or off his feet. I dont have a problem with them being knocked prone I would not have a problem with a referee ruling that with 8 feet they get a saving throw against this. RS save to avoid I thing is fair. i'd even give this to the osakar as well as their 4 legs are most likely a stable platform as well perhaps the osakar are penalized 10 points on that save roll (+10).

As for the dralasites let me point out this:

page 20 expanded rules under Falling, Jumping and diving:

Alpha Dawn wrote:

If a character suffers 15 or more points of damage in a fall, he has sprained a leg. His movement speed is reduced by half. If a character suffers 25 or more points of damage, he has broken a bone or a torn muscle. The Player must roll 1d10; on 1-8, the character has broken a leg, on 9 or 10  he injured an arm. A character with a broken leg can not move until the leg is splinted, and then moves at half speed. A broken arm cannot be used. Dralasites can spend 10 minutes absorbing the old limb and growing a new one; this does not heal the damage, but does remove the penalty.

emphasis mine


I would take this cannon rule statement to indicate that bruising and breaking of limbs does occur in dralasites despite the classic blob view of them. They are elastic but the book enforces limits on this like a limb can be no less then 10 cm thick. they are not a ball but a roughly humanoid shape with stretchy limbs. so based on on the above i dont see a problem with boot stomping them.

I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

KRingway's picture
KRingway
November 19, 2017 - 12:59am
The +20 rule is good, if the opponent has no Martial Arts skill. If they do, the +20 is negated. However, that skill is only good in limited ways. So, for every other opponent involved in the stomping, the bonus starts to rise against the stomp target. This means, 2 stompers vs martial arts stompee = +10 for the attack. 3 stompers is +20 (bringing it in line with a stomp against an unskilled stompee). Perhaps it never goes above +20 if there are more stompers, as it gets crowded Wink

In this way even a skilled target would have problems defending against multiple attackers acting at the same time. That said, if you want your game to be more like a Bruce Lee film I guess you could just say that the stompee never suffers any penalties Wink

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
November 19, 2017 - 5:53am
Stunned rule is fine. If you cannot respond to an attack because you are disoriented you are an easier target. 

Vrusk have six legs so damage to one would not so them down as much as it would a two legged character. BUT a fall would not likely only impact one leg. Also their legs are structurely different from the other races bending outward so the move at more of a scuttle than a stride. For Vrusk you can say the fall of 15 points damage bruised their hip joints on one side and slows them down 50% while a 25 point fall will cause a hip dislocation which must be treated before they can move again.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

jedion357's picture
jedion357
November 19, 2017 - 5:55am
KRingway wrote:


In this way even a skilled target would have problems defending against multiple attackers acting at the same time. That said, if you want your game to be more like a Bruce Lee film I guess you could just say that the stompee never suffers any penalties Wink


For that we have w00t's cinematic martial artist article in the SFman

KRingway wrote:

The +20 rule is good, if the opponent has no Martial Arts skill. If they do, the +20 is negated. However, that skill is only good in limited ways. So, for every other opponent involved in the stomping, the bonus starts to rise against the stomp target. This means, 2 stompers vs martial arts stompee = +10 for the attack. 3 stompers is +20 (bringing it in line with a stomp against an unskilled stompee). Perhaps it never goes above +20 if there are more stompers, as it gets crowded Wink


reasonable but how about this: martial arts skill negates this unless 2 or more attackers: simple

OR- the martial artist may negate the +20 bonus against one opponent his choice.

OR: the melee rules allow a combatant to defend himself for a -15 penalty to the attacker the maritial artist simply invokes this rule automatically even from a prone position. characters without martial arts training can only defend if they are on their feet.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

jedion357's picture
jedion357
November 19, 2017 - 5:57am
rattraveller wrote:
Stunned rule is fine. If you cannot respond to an attack because you are disoriented you are an easier target. 

Vrusk have six legs so damage to one would not so them down as much as it would a two legged character. BUT a fall would not likely only impact one leg. Also their legs are structurely different from the other races bending outward so the move at more of a scuttle than a stride. For Vrusk you can say the fall of 15 points damage bruised their hip joints on one side and slows them down 50% while a 25 point fall will cause a hip dislocation which must be treated before they can move again.


Nice adaption of the original material.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
November 19, 2017 - 8:36am
jedion357 wrote:
I'm not hearing an arguement against applying the already existing +20 to hit a stunned opponent or one attacked from behind to an opponent knocked prone.

Allow me the opportunity then...Basic D&D allows for automatic success in not only hitting but killing such opponents. Re: the sleep spell, once affected you can shove a sword through their sleeping throats and kill them without rolling any dice...it even goes so far as to say they can be killed with a single blow regardless of hit points. Honestly, the concept of shoving a sonic sword up to a stunned opponent's temple and activating the blade should mandate no dice rolling.

Shooting the stunned opponent from a hundred yards, yeah...roll to hit at the minimum. Repeated stomping/kicking? The first blow should cause damage but at the same time wake them up...there might be some recovery time involved where additional blows can be taken but this should be exponential rather than any constant stomping/kicking to a limp body.
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
November 19, 2017 - 5:23pm
I believe there is a difference between stunned and unconscious. Sleeping or being rendered completely senseless gives you the chance to kill the person quickly and easily. Stunned on the over hand is more dazed, staggering and seeing stars than not able to defend yourself at all.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

jedion357's picture
jedion357
November 20, 2017 - 5:28am
The specific instance was rendered prone not stunned by the martial artist subskill. I ruled the +20 for attacking someone stunned or from behind applied. sleep spell would be overkill in this instance going quite a bit further than stunned or an attack from behind.

I'd say a dose grenade would equate to a sleep spell and then you'd have an auto hit and one hit kill. Possibly even a tangler entrapped victim.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

JCab747's picture
JCab747
November 20, 2017 - 6:05pm
KRingway wrote:
As someone who uses the other races in Zeb's Guide, I'd say also consider them when writing any new rules. Also, writing up rules that apply to each race is potentially a bit bulky for actual use unless it's streamlined enough to be practical and more useful than what we already have.


Agreed.
Joe Cabadas

JCab747's picture
JCab747
February 11, 2018 - 5:21pm
I thought I would add on to this topic. It seems the most appropriate one, although there is an older discussion called "Punching" that I think mentions that there was a story in Star Frontiersman magazine about cinematic martial arts moves. (I remember reading that story, I'll have to look it up.)

While doing a web search on the topic of "Martial Artist" I came across a D&D topic about martial arts and thought some of the ideas presented could be translated into Star Frontiers.

Here's the link to the source here: http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/martialartist.htm

Joe Cabadas

JCab747's picture
JCab747
February 11, 2018 - 5:22pm
Some of the ideas presented included:

The following are class features of the martial artist.

Weapon and armor proficiency: The martial artist is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with exotic monk weapons (kama, nunchaku and siangham, or the halfling versions of these for Small-sized characters).  She is not proficient with any type of armor or shield.

Defensive talent (Ex): At 1st level, the martial artist?s training allows her to dodge and parry blows almost without conscious effort. She adds her Wisdom bonus, if any, as a bonus to AC when not wearing armor or using a shield. The bonus is not lost even if the martial artist is flat-footed, stunned or loses her Dexterity bonus to AC (she does lose it if she is unconscious or immobilised).

AC bonus (Ex): As the martial artist gains levels, she also improves her knowledge of defensive fighting techniques. At 1st level she gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC when not wearing armor or using a shield, and this bonus increases by 1 every 6 levels thereafter (ie +2 at 6th level, +3 at 12th level, and so on). This bonus is lost whenever she loses her Dexterity bonus to AC.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Martial artists have the ability to react to danger with extraordinary speed. Starting at 2nd level, the martial artist retains her Dexterity bonus to AC if caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker (which means she also retains her level-based AC bonus in these situations). If a martial artist already has uncanny dodge from a different class (at least four levels of rogue, for example), she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A martial artist of 5th level or higher can no longer be flanked; she can react to opponents on opposite sides of her as easily as she can react to a single attacker. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has martial artist levels.

If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that gain uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.

Trap Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, the martial artist gains a +1 bonus to her Reflex saves and a +1 dodge bonus to her AC against traps. These bonuses rise by +1 every 3 martial artist levels thereafter (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level). Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.

Acrobatics (Ex): At 7th level, the martial artist can take 10 on any Balance, Jump and Tumble skill check, even if circumstances would normally keep her from doing so. At 10th level, she gains a +5 competence bonus to Balance, Jump and Tumble skill checks. These bonuses rise by +5 every 3 martial artist levels hereafter (13th, 16th and 19th level).

Joe Cabadas

JCab747's picture
JCab747
February 11, 2018 - 5:23pm
Yeah, SF doesn't go beyond six levels (eight if using Zebs), but some of these ideas could make the character with a martial arts skill more potent.
Joe Cabadas

JCab747's picture
JCab747
February 11, 2018 - 5:24pm
A few other things from the source:

Martial Artist-Specific Feats

Enhanced Unarmed Strike

You do not need weapons, for your body itself is a lethal weapon.

Prerequisites: Martial artist level 1st+.

Benefit: You gain the benefits of the Improved Unarmed Strike feat from the PHB. Your unarmed strikes do 1d6 points of damage (for Medium-sized characters; smaller or larger characters adjust damage dice as per the rules in the DMG and MM). You can also choose to deal your damage as either normal or subdual without penalty. This feat can be used to meet the requirements for feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.

Special: For every 6 martial artist levels you have, you can take this feat one additional time. Each time you take this feat, your unarmed damage dice increase by one step, as per the rules in the DMG and MM.

Improved Light Step (Su)

You can walk on water, blades of grass, the branches of tree saplings, clouds ? anything.

Prerequisites: Martial Artist level 15th+, Light Step, Balance skill, Dex 19+, Wis 15+.

Benefit: You gain the benefit of an air walk spell, for up to one round per day per martial artist level you have attained. The use of this feat need not be consecutive rounds, and activating and deactivating the effect is a free action.  You must be wearing light or no armour and carrying no more than a light load to use this feat. Deactivating the effect counts as the air walk spell duration expiring, so if you are still aloft, it fails slowly (see the spell description for details).

This is a supernatural ability.

Instinctive Shot

You are one with your bow, enabling you to make difficult shots as if they were routine.

Prerequisites: Martial artist level 6th+, Point-Blank Shot, Weapon Focus with chosen bow.

Benefit: Choose a type of bow (not a crossbow). When using a bow of that type, you can apply double your Wisdom bonus (if any) to negate attack penalties due to range. You do not gain an actual bonus to hit; if the doubled Wisdom modifier is greater than the range penalty, the excess is discarded. You can also reroll miss chances due to concealment; you can only reroll the miss chance once per attack roll.

Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack; each time you take this feat, it applies to a different type of bow.

Instinctive Strike

To the astute, brawn is unnecessary. You exemplify this.

Prerequisites: Martial artist level 6th+, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon, Wis 15+.

Benefit: When using a weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you may add your Wisdom bonus to your damage rolls in place of your Strength modifier. Unlike your Strength modifier, this bonus to damage is not adjusted for two-handed or off-hand weapons. You do not gain this benefit if the weapon you use does not allow a Strength bonus to damage.

Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack; each time you take this feat, it applies to a different weapon. You can choose mighty bows or ?unarmed strike? as your weapon for the purposes of this feat. A mighty bow?s Strength limit doesn?t apply to your Wisdom bonus.

Light Step (Su)

When you move, you do not disturb the tranquility of the world.

Prerequisites: Martial artist level 10th+, Balance skill, Dex 19+, Wis 15+.

Benefit: You can walk while barely touching the ground. You must remain above (at most an inch above) a roughly horizontal surface, but you can traverse both nonsolid or unstable surfaces such as water or lava. You can ignore the effects of difficult terrain on movement and movement-related skill checks. You must be wearing light or no armour and carrying no more than a light load to use this feat.

It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to track you when you are using this ability, unless the tracker is using scent or some other nonvisual means of tracking. You further gain a +20 competence bonus to Balance checks, and a +10 competence bonus to Reflex saves to avoid entangle, transmute rock to mud, and similar spells and effects. This is a supernatural ability.

Martial Finesse

You wield weapons with extraordinary grace and fluency.

Prerequisites: Martial artist level 1st+, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.

Benefit: Choose a melee weapon that you can use one-handed, with which you have Weapon Focus. When using the selected weapon, you can use your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you use a shield, its armour check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack; each time you take this feat, it applies to a different weapon. You can take this feat with the bastard sword, glaive, quarterstaff, spear, spiked chain, or two-bladed sword, even if you need two hands to wield these weapons.

Normal: A character without this feat uses her Strength modifier on melee attack rolls. She can take the Weapon Finesse feat to use her Dexterity modifier in place of her Strength modifier, but only when using a light weapon, rapier, spiked chain or whip.

Strike Without Thought

Uniting body and mind with a single purpose, you know where to strike.

Prerequisites: Martial artist level 12th+, Instinctive Strike, Martial Finesse, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Str 13+, Wis 15+.

Benefit: Pick a melee weapon with which you have Instinctive Strike and Martial Finesse. As a free action, you can add your Wisdom bonus as an insight bonus to all attack rolls with this weapon for one full round. You can use this ability up to once per day for every two martial artist levels you have attained.

Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a different weapon. You can choose ?unarmed strike? as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.

Joe Cabadas

JCab747's picture
JCab747
February 11, 2018 - 6:44pm
OK, now to try to translate this into Star Frontiers.

Sub-skill: Defense Ability: The martial artist can attempt to dodge and parry bare-handed and melee weapon blows. This ability comes almost without conscious effort, but the character cannot attack while being on active defense. A successful roll means an attack is parried, resulting in no damage to the marial artist even if it was an automatic hit. A martial artist cannot use this sub-skill if he is stunned or immobilized.
Joe Cabadas

JCab747's picture
JCab747
February 11, 2018 - 7:13pm
Sub-skill: Dodging Bonus. When dodging against a ranged attack, the martial artist receives an additional -5% bonus per level to avoid being hit.

Sub-skill: Prevent Flanking Attacks: At level 3 and above, the martial artist negates an opponent's bonus if they are attacking from behind.

Sub-skill: Trap Sense: At level 3, the martial artist receives a +10% modifier for Intuition or similar skill checks to detect traps.

Sub-skill: Martial Finesse.
At level 3, a character who also knows a melee weapon skill receives a +10% bonus to hit.

Sub-skill: Instinctive Shot. At level 3, a character who also has the thrown weapon skill receives a +10% bonus to hit. (This includes using grenades.)

Sub-skill: Aerobatic Arts.
At 4th level, the martial artist can leap 1 meter higher than normal from a standing or running start or can make a horizontal leap that is 2 meters farther than normal. Such a character can double their climbing rate and reduce fall damage by 1 meter per level.

Sub-skill: Light Step. At 5th level, the martial artist can move without "disturb the tranquility of the world." When someone tries tracking the character, they receive a -20% modifer. The character can also walk on some structures that seemingly wouldn't support the character's weight -- such as a small branch, though doing some impossible feats such as traipsing across a paper ceiling or walking on water are not permitted. The character must be wearing light or no armor and can only be carrying a light load to use this sub-skill.

Sub-skill: Instinctive Strike. At 5th level, if a martial artist has uses a martial arts, melee, thrown weapon or ranged weapon attack (assuming he possesses the appropriate weapon's skill), he will cause an additional 1d10 points of damage for a successful hit.

Sub-skill: Strike Without Thought. At 6th level, when performing a bare-hand attack, the martial artist will do an additional 1d10 points of damage (this is in addition to the 1d10 points of damage inflicted on a target from the Instinctive Strike sub-skill).
Joe Cabadas

JCab747's picture
JCab747
February 11, 2018 - 7:44pm
JCab747 wrote:
Sub-skill: Dodging Bonus. When dodging against a ranged attack, the martial artist receives an additional -5% bonus per level to avoid being hit.



OK. Maybe this is a bit too powerful. So, here is a revision:

Sub-skill: Dodging Bonus. When dodging against a ranged attack, the martial artist receives an additional -5% bonus to avoid being hit.
Joe Cabadas

JCab747's picture
JCab747
February 11, 2018 - 8:08pm
Another revision:

Sub-skill: Aerobatic Arts. At 4th level, the martial artist can leap 1 meter higher than normal from a standing or running start or can make a horizontal leap that is 2 meters farther than normal. Such a character can double their climbing rate and reduce fall damage by an additional -1 point per level.

Joe Cabadas

JCab747's picture
JCab747
February 18, 2018 - 8:18pm
I did find the cinematic martial arts article. I guess what I've listed above is very similar  and is probably based on similar sources.
Joe Cabadas