Issues of Frontier Astro Geography

jedion357's picture
jedion357
September 6, 2016 - 12:07pm
1). The problem of all the neutron stars on the original map has been discussed before

2.)an area called the Rim? The name suggests the edge. And yet we have another edge with "The Great Expanse"

The Great Expanse suggests, at least to my mind that the Frontier abuts up against the edge of one of the spiral arms of this "spiral galaxy" if so the Rim territory makes no sense where it's position is unless of course it's called the Rim for some less obvious reason. (I don't believe I'm a fan of it being the Rim for a less obvious reason).

Any other Astro Geography issues 
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!
Comments:

jedion357's picture
jedion357
September 6, 2016 - 12:11pm
The "empty" space between spiral arms, as I understand it, is not all that empty. There are stars there but their concentration is very thin so the space appears empty. 

I've traditionally placed Yazira in this direction and since stars are sparse void jumps will be very long and run greater risks which made the Star Exodus of the Yazirians such an incredible feet. 
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

JCab747's picture
JCab747
September 6, 2016 - 12:46pm
I always got the impression it was called "The Rim" because the Ifshnit, Osakar and Humma worlds were on the rim of the Xygag Dust Cloud.

Yes, the "Vast Expanse" wouldn't be empty. It's probably that the stars are much farther apart than in the Frontiers and, I think, beyond the jump capabilities -- or at least the navigational capabilities -- of UPF ships.

And all of the neutron stars on the Frontier are one of those TSR oddities... along with the Ebony Eyes, which are not on the map but are clearly part of the "canon" thanks to Dragon magazine.

I think the Zebulon map makes an even bigger astronomical problem -- though I'm not an astronomy expert by any means -- but doesn't it seem to indicate at least one super blue giant and a super red giant on the map. Do those kinds of stars pose any problems for the nearby star systems that are supposed to have habitable planets?
Joe Cabadas

iggy's picture
iggy
September 6, 2016 - 8:33pm
JCab747 wrote:
I always got the impression it was called "The Rim" because the Ifshnit, Osakar and Humma worlds were on the rim of the Xygag Dust Cloud.


I like this explanation.  I also made the rim jut away from the frontier in my Celestia 3D map.  See here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlKNlCY4BxY
Check at 3:00 minutes.
-iggy

ChrisDonovan's picture
ChrisDonovan
September 7, 2016 - 4:26am
I am reminded of a historical note in the introduction to Alpha Dawn that is this "great spiral galaxy" the stars are much closer together than in our own.  That makes sense given the 21 LY rule. Otherwise the Frontier would not be reachable at all.

JCab747's picture
JCab747
September 7, 2016 - 5:15am
ChrisDonovan wrote:
I am reminded of a historical note in the introduction to Alpha Dawn that is this "great spiral galaxy" the stars are much closer together than in our own.  That makes sense given the 21 LY rule. Otherwise the Frontier would not be reachable at all.


A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away Humans dwelled that look remarkably like Earthlings and act pretty much the same...

Then again, if I wanted to use Star Trek the Old Foggies as a reference, you can have lots of parallel Earths out there...
Joe Cabadas

ChrisDonovan's picture
ChrisDonovan
September 7, 2016 - 6:22am
^ Not sure how that applies here...

JCab747's picture
JCab747
September 7, 2016 - 6:59am
Only that with my game I assume the Humans are from Earth. But I know what the rules say.

Anyway, it doesn't have much to do with how close the stars are in the Frontier. Sorry for the non sequitur.

Joe Cabadas

ChrisDonovan's picture
ChrisDonovan
September 7, 2016 - 8:56am
^ np

TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
September 8, 2016 - 4:38am
JCab747 wrote:
I think the Zebulon map makes an even bigger astronomical problem -- though I'm not an astronomy expert by any means -- but doesn't it seem to indicate at least one super blue giant and a super red giant on the map. Do those kinds of stars pose any problems for the nearby star systems that are supposed to have habitable planets?

The blue giant star would have blown all the dust and nebula away.  Otherwise they don't really pose a problem until they blow up. (Which several already did since there are neutron stars.)

Actually just having the nebula is an issue as well.  If there are big blue stars around and stars that have gone supernova to form neutron stars, there would be no nebula around unless they are the remenants of those supernova.  Those large stars would have cleared the area of dust and gas that forms the nebula long ago. 

And any super nova on the Frontier map would have sterlilized every planet on the map when it occurred (and for several map lengths in every direction).  If you assume the neturon stars and the nebula, the only real way for complex life to exist on these planets is for them all to have been seeded afterward.
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Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine
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JCab747's picture
JCab747
September 8, 2016 - 5:38am
TerlObar wrote:
JCab747 wrote:
I think the Zebulon map makes an even bigger astronomical problem -- though I'm not an astronomy expert by any means -- but doesn't it seem to indicate at least one super blue giant and a super red giant on the map. Do those kinds of stars pose any problems for the nearby star systems that are supposed to have habitable planets?

The blue giant star would have blown all the dust and nebula away.  Otherwise they don't really pose a problem until they blow up. (Which several already did since there are neutron stars.)

Actually just having the nebula is an issue as well.  If there are big blue stars around and stars that have gone supernova to form neutron stars, there would be no nebula around unless they are the remenants of those supernova.  Those large stars would have cleared the area of dust and gas that forms the nebula long ago. 

And any super nova on the Frontier map would have sterlilized every planet on the map when it occurred (and for several map lengths in every direction).  If you assume the neturon stars and the nebula, the only real way for complex life to exist on these planets is for them all to have been seeded afterward.


Ah, I thought I had read a posting like yours before. You probably made it.

I've thought of converting the neutron stars on my map to large brown dwarfs. Or we could assume the Tetrarachs, for whatever reason, terraformed all the planets. These mysterious aliens are always the fall back explanation for the unexplanable.
Joe Cabadas

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
September 8, 2016 - 6:27am
ChrisDonovan wrote:
given the 21 LY rule.

I've seen this mentioned before, where is this rule stated?
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

ChrisDonovan's picture
ChrisDonovan
September 8, 2016 - 6:49am
TerlObar wrote:
JCab747 wrote:
And any super nova on the Frontier map would have sterlilized every planet on the map when it occurred (and for several map lengths in every direction).  If you assume the neturon stars and the nebula, the only real way for complex life to exist on these planets is for them all to have been seeded afterward.


Cue the Tetrarchs.

TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
September 8, 2016 - 8:12pm
Shadow Shack wrote:
ChrisDonovan wrote:
given the 21 LY rule.

I've seen this mentioned before, where is this rule stated?
I think he's referring to the -5% per light year penalty when charting a new jump route in the astrogation skill.  Once you're up to 21 ly in distance you basically have a 5% chance of success.
Ad Astra Per Ardua!
Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site
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Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
September 8, 2016 - 8:59pm
In that case there is no limit because any roll of 01-05 is automatic success in canon.

Assuming anyone wants to take that slim chance.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

iggy's picture
iggy
September 8, 2016 - 9:38pm
I've asked this question before.  What if the TSR guys thought of neutron stars as something else than what they really are?  If we could divine what they were really thinking of then we could reclassify the neutron stars as something else and all feel happy that we are "cannon".  What if they were thinking white dwarf and confusing the two paths that stars take, not recognizing that there is a different outcome for a red giant versus a red super giant?
-iggy

jedion357's picture
jedion357
September 9, 2016 - 2:39am
iggy wrote:
I've asked this question before.  What if the TSR guys thought of neutron stars as something else than what they really are?  If we could divine what they were really thinking of then we could reclassify the neutron stars as something else and all feel happy that we are "cannon".  What if they were thinking white dwarf and confusing the two paths that stars take, not recognizing that there is a different outcome for a red giant versus a red super giant?


Thats a tall order, might be easier to simply reclassify them as brown dwarfs and move on. Brown dwarfs are realtively harmless and should not cause and problems.

AND this region of space does seem to have a high instance of wandering stars like brown dwarfs. If I'm not mistaken Starmist is a planet not native to its system which implies it was grabbed off by the star when a wandering star passed through. Also the Yazirian Star Exodus has been theorized (fan cannon) to be caused by a brown dwarf passing through the Yazira system and kicking the inhabitable planet our or into a different orbit.

So sprinkling the map with some brown dwarfs isn't such a bad thing.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
September 9, 2016 - 6:42pm
Well, I'm pretty sure they weren't thinking about brown dwarfs.  The first one wasn't discovered until 1995. My wife's dissertation advisor was on the paper.
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Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site
Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine
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JCab747's picture
JCab747
September 9, 2016 - 7:24pm
TerlObar wrote:
Well, I'm pretty sure they weren't thinking about brown dwarfs.  The first one wasn't discovered until 1995. My wife's dissertation advisor was on the paper.


Could the neutron stars in the Frontier be real old? That way when the original super giants exploded, then they wouldn't have sterilized the planets in the nearby area?
Joe Cabadas

ChrisDonovan's picture
ChrisDonovan
September 9, 2016 - 8:55pm
Shadow Shack wrote:
In that case there is no limit because any roll of 01-05 is automatic success in canon.

Assuming anyone wants to take that slim chance.


If you want to use rules logic, that's true.

Which makes ANY reaching of the Frontier by the Core Four the result of blind luck, given the described nature of the Expanse.

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
September 9, 2016 - 9:23pm
The thing is once someone actually does succeed in such a "long jump", it becomes a known route that can be sold/bartered/exchanged/etc at which point anyone can make the trip.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

jedion357's picture
jedion357
September 10, 2016 - 5:40am
Speaking of brown dwarfs, 


http://m.phys.org/news/2016-09-brown-dwarfs-plain-sight-solar.html?utm_content=buffer7160c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=plus.goo...
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

jedion357's picture
jedion357
September 10, 2016 - 5:44am
Brown dwarfs are being discovered in our solar neighborhood. What's interesting to me is in a game setting where there are limitations on jump distance and for some reason you need a gravity well like a Star the math of the astrography might make an area a dead end but the the discovery of a brown dwarf give you a way out. 
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

jedion357's picture
jedion357
September 10, 2016 - 5:47am
I think, for myself, I'm going to go with the neutron stars on the map being brown dwarfs unless someone comes up with a better idea. It purely a typo in Pan Gal and it was supposed to say brown dwarf. It's simpler that way. 
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

iggy's picture
iggy
September 10, 2016 - 7:07am
JCab747 wrote:
Could the neutron stars in the Frontier be real old? That way when the original super giants exploded, then they wouldn't have sterilized the planets in the nearby area?
Could this be true? 
-iggy

TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
September 10, 2016 - 2:08pm
It could be but the the chance of having three of them wandering by at the same time is pretty small.  They are not that common of an object.  But a lot of them them do pick up a significant velocity from asymmetric shock fronts when they are forms so it's not impossible for them to be wandering around.
Ad Astra Per Ardua!
Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site
Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine
Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine

JCab747's picture
JCab747
September 10, 2016 - 6:33pm
TerlObar wrote:
It could be but the the chance of having three of them wandering by at the same time is pretty small.  They are not that common of an object.  But a lot of them them do pick up a significant velocity from asymmetric shock fronts when they are forms so it's not impossible for them to be wandering around.


Maybe they're all bound together in some weird gravimetric triangle... due to the Tetrarchs.
Joe Cabadas

iggy's picture
iggy
September 10, 2016 - 8:31pm
Wandering?  Neutron stars wander?  Does that mean that in a few million years they will have left the frontier?

Counting on the Zeb's map, there are six neutron stars.  Five of these are new.  The Alpha Dawn map only has one of them.  Could it be that the Alpha Dawn neutron star is wandering through (maybe high above or bellow the plane of the frontier stars) and the other five in the Zeb's map are mis labeled by the poor design of Zeb's?  Could we reclassify the five neutron stars added in the Zeb's map as white dwarfs?  Can a white dwarf occur without destroying it's stellar neighborhood?

Also, Ebony Eyes is supposed to be on the line half way between Dramune K'aken-Kar.  What are the issues with Ebony Eyes?
-iggy

JCab747's picture
JCab747
September 10, 2016 - 8:46pm
iggy wrote:
Wandering?  Neutron stars wander?  Does that mean that in a few million years they will have left the frontier?

Counting on the Zeb's map, there are six neutron stars.  Five of these are new.  The Alpha Dawn map only has one of them.  Could it be that the Alpha Dawn neutron star is wandering through (maybe high above or bellow the plane of the frontier stars) and the other five in the Zeb's map are mis labeled by the poor design of Zeb's?  Could we reclassify the five neutron stars added in the Zeb's map as white dwarfs?  Can a white dwarf occur without destroying it's stellar neighborhood?

Also, Ebony Eyes is supposed to be on the line half way between Dramune K'aken-Kar.  What are the issues with Ebony Eyes?


The Zebs map is pretty... flawed.

I would agree that one neutron star would work and the others could be reclassified as something else... if it was up to me... Hey, as the game ref I can do that, but I understand we are talking about having something consistent for everyone... at least those who check out the forums here or read Frontier Explorer.
Joe Cabadas

iggy's picture
iggy
September 11, 2016 - 2:34pm
My reading on Wikipedia last night brought up the following about white dwarfs.  The planetary nebulae created by the red giant they form from only are about one light year in diameter compared to the many light years of debris from a super nova.  The planetary nebulae cool quickly and only are visible for thousands of years and not millions like the nebulae remenants of a super nova around a neutron star.  The nearest white dwarf to the sun (Sirius B) is just 8.6 light years from Earth.  The neutron stars we could reclassify as white dwarfs in the Zeb's and Alpha dawn map are from four to six light years from their nearest habitable stars.  I'm really leaning toward reclassifying the five Zeb's neutron stars as white dwarfs.
-iggy

JCab747's picture
JCab747
September 11, 2016 - 7:36pm
iggy wrote:
My reading on Wikipedia last night brought up the following about white dwarfs.  The planetary nebulae created by the red giant they form from only are about one light year in diameter compared to the many light years of debris from a super nova.  The planetary nebulae cool quickly and only are visible for thousands of years and not millions like the nebulae remenants of a super nova around a neutron star.  The nearest white dwarf to the sun (Sirius B) is just 8.6 light years from Earth.  The neutron stars we could reclassify as white dwarfs in the Zeb's and Alpha dawn map are from four to six light years from their nearest habitable stars.  I'm really leaning toward reclassifying the five Zeb's neutron stars as white dwarfs.


If I can vote, I say Yea! White dwarfs, brown dwarfs, red dwarfs, whatever would make sense.
Joe Cabadas