New vessels - Brig, Brigantine and Schooner

Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
October 1, 2013 - 10:50pm
My question is why not introduce some new spaceships?

These vessels were typically between a small yacht and up to frigate in size. The Assault Scout kind of fills this role but it is worth a discussion because other races may not use the Assault Scout. The Mhemne came up with the Patrol Ship for example. 

Below is some basic information. Please provide input.

Brig
Brigs were seen as fast and maneuverable and were used as both naval warships and merchant vessels. They required a relatively large crew for their small size and were difficult to sail into the wind.

Specifications
WeightTonnages up to 480
Length75–165 ft (23–50 m)
CrewVaries, 12 to 16 to sail

example: USS Argus

General characteristics
Type:Brig
Tonnage:299
Length:

94 ft 6 in (28.80 m) gun-deck

77 ft (23 m) keel
Beam:28 ft 2 in (8.59 m)
Draft:12 ft 8 in (3.86 m)
Propulsion:Sail
Complement:142 officers and enlisted
Armament:

• 2 × 12-pounder guns
• 16 × 24-pounder carronades

• 2 × 18-pounder guns
• 14 × 32-pounder carronades

Brigantine
Brigantine was a small ship carrying both oars and sails. It was a favorite of Mediterranean pirates and its name comes from the Italian word brigantino, meaning brigand, and applied by extension to his ship. Not to be confused with Brig.

General characteristics
Displacement:129 t
Length:113 ft (34 m)
Beam:21 ft (6 m)
Height:87.6 ft (26.7 m)
Draft:11 ft (3 m)

Schooners
The most common type of schooners, with two-masts, were popular in trades that required speed and windward ability, such as slavingprivateering, and blockade running. They were also traditional fishing boats, used for offshore fishing. Although a schooner may have up to six masts, the typical schooner has only two, with the foremast shorter than the mainmast.

Republic of Texas - Zavala
General characteristics
Type:Schooner
Length:201 ft (61 m)
Beam:24 ft (7.3 m)
Draft:12 ft (3.7 m)
Propulsion:steam
Capacity:120
Complement:24 officers
123 sailors & marines
Armament:

4-12 lb. med.

1-9 lb. long
Comments:

jedion357's picture
jedion357
October 2, 2013 - 3:48am
First impression is that the names brig, brigantine, and schooner has names originating in antiquity but these names have not for the most part translated to sci fi settings though perhaps they did in the Lt. Leary Commanding/ With the Lightnings books. For the most part I would not think that we need new classifications beyond what we have but if you had a clear set of specs that were easily identifiable I would not object. Still I think that you'll fall into the yatch, privateer, warship categories. Perhaps a schooner is a civilian version of the assault scout? What about sloop?
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

jedion357's picture
jedion357
October 2, 2013 - 3:50am
Second thought, what if we developed a class of ship based on yazirian or vrusk traditions, or even ifshnit? Something essentially Frontier centric?
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
October 2, 2013 - 5:04am
Ok, scratch the Brig, Brigantine and Schooner. I'll find something on the Sloop and post it.

I did come up with a Escort Carrier. 
Basically the same crew as a destroyer (50 men) and then 30 for flight crews and the remaining 20 for Command and Boarding Parties. 
It's almost half the size of an Assault Carrier but, where the smallest Assault Carrier carriers 5 fighters the Escort Carrier carries like 2-4, I settled on 3. It may seem small but it is roughly proportional.


Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
October 2, 2013 - 5:05am
Woolworth-class Escort Carrier
{{{Image}}}
HP:50ADF:1
DCR:75MR:2
HS:8Crew:100
Engines: 3 Size-B Atomic Drive
Weapons: 2 Laser Batteries
Defenses: Reflective Hull, 4 ICM
Other Equipment: 3 Fighters

jedion357's picture
jedion357
October 2, 2013 - 5:24am
Does the escort carrier reflect a civilian or military build?

I think this would make an excellent platfrom for a mercenary company. Ship contracts out for private security, escort duties, air superiority missions during a troop drop, etc.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
October 2, 2013 - 5:28am
 A sloop refers to a warship between a corvette and a frigate in size. Here is an example of a modern Sloop - Aubretia class. It was designed as an escort. They were built in a civilian yard to ease production.

General characteristics
Type:Convoy escort Q-Ship: ("Warship-Q")
Displacement:1,250 tons
Length:255 ft 3 in (77.80 m) p/p
267 ft 9 in (81.61 m) o/a
Beam:33 ft 6 in (10.21 m)
Draught:12 ft 6 in (3.81 m)
Propulsion:1 × 4-cylinder triple expansion engine
2 × cylindrical boilers
1 screw
Speed:Designed to make 17.5 knots (32.4 km/h) at 2,500 ihp (1,900 kW), but actually can only make 15-16.5 knots (30.6 km/h) with this power and require 3,000 ihp (2,200 kW). for 17.5 knots (32.4 km/h).
Range:205 tons of coal
Complement:80 men
Armament:

Designed to mount :

but had :

  • 2 × 4 (102 mm) inch gun
  • 1 × 3-pdr (47 mm) AA
  • depth charge throwers

It could be built in a Class III Construction Center. Maybe it is a system ship or is towed to another Construction Center for engine upgrade. It could be a new yacht or privateer. It is suggested to be a hull size 4.5 but, since there is not such a thing - two designs are below: a Lesser Sloop and a Greater Sloop. The ADF/MR would be affected if it was a system ship. This would be a good ship for a System Defense Force.

Sloop
 Lesser
HP:20ADF:4
DCR:60MR:4
HS:4Crew:10
Engines: 1 Size-A Atomic Drive
Weapons: 2 Laser Battery
Defenses: Reflective Hull
Other Equipment: None
The Lesser Sloop is weaker then a Corvette in HP, weapons and defenses.

Sloop
Greater
HP:30ADF:3
DCR:70MR:3
HS:5Crew:15
Engines: 3 Size-B Atomic Drive
Weapons: 2 Laser Battery, 2 Torpedoes
Defenses: Reflective Hull, 4 ICMs
Other Equipment: 1 Lifeboat
The Greater Sloop has greater HP, DCR and weapons punch with Torpedoes added. It is superior to a Corvette.

Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
October 2, 2013 - 5:43am
The escort carrier is a military build. I see it as not in favor with the UPF but, a necessary evil. With the Assault and Fleet Carriers off in fighting the fight, the escort carrier would stay in the Frontier and be used where needed. 

For those that think "Ugh, 3 fighters!" Well yes and that is 9 assault rockets doing 2D10+4 for each rocket (6-24 points of damage). If 14 points is average and with a 60% hit ratio on a reflective hull, one fighter can take out an Assault Scout, Corvette or almost a Frigate. Three fighters could destroy a light cruiser. 

Now, team up a couple of Assault Scouts, Yachts or Privateers with an Escort Carrier and a Frigate...well a Sather fleet would get a bloody nose.

But, I would think that this would be restricted to UPF and Militias just as Assault Carriers and Battleships are. A Merc or Corp could not or would not be allowed to make it.

jedion357's picture
jedion357
October 2, 2013 - 5:51am
RE: assault rockets- I wont dispute that that many rockets would trash an assualt scout, corvette or even handle a frigate roughly. I've never satisfied myself as to whether a craft can ripple fire all assault rockets in one turn or must it fire one per turn? As a kid I interpreted the situation as one 1 rocket per turn- ie its a launcher with X number of rockets in its magazine. As an adult looking at the game ripple fire certainly makes the Assault Scout worthy of its name.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
October 2, 2013 - 5:55am
I always assumed it was one per turn OR you purchased an additional launcher. But, that goes into the same grey area as before - they never defined that; if RBx4 and Tx2 is 4 Rocket Batteries or 1 Battery and 4 reloads ~ 1 Torpedo launcher and 2 reloads or 2 one-shot launchers?

Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
October 2, 2013 - 5:56am
P.S. I assumed that the Assault Scout had two launchers - one in each engine pod and the laser battery was in the nose. So the characters got 1 laser and 2 rockets per turn.

jedion357's picture
jedion357
October 2, 2013 - 6:09am
I think looking at the Weapons Installation Chart (page 44 of the digitally remastered KHs) that since the assualt rocket launcher is MHS 1 and 10 cubic meters and that the rocket itself is listed separately as 10 cubic meters that you could make the case for the rockets being puchased separately to fill a magazine- ie 1 shot per turn. however the MHS is 1 so you could, by the rules have 3 launchers on a HS 3 ship- now a std. Assault scout has 4 rockets and since its a cutting edge design you could simply allow it to fire all 4 rockets in one turn essentually ruling that the ship has 4 assault rocket launchers. This situation lets this little ship pack a massive punch in one turn: 4 Assault rockets and 2 Laser battery (LB gets to fire in both halves of a turn) rolls against one opponent- this is a very bad day for the target especially with a highly trained crew doing the firing- pilot using his skill to increase the chance to hit of the FF weapons and a highly trained gunner- yeah that's going to hurt.

also the conical shaped structure on the wings leading to the engine might perhaps be the assault rocket launchers on this craft and since there are 2 of them holding 4 rockets your call of firing 2 rockets per turn makes a lot of sense too.

EDIT: I think the fact that the ship was named Assault Scout sways me toward the higher rate of fire side of the ruling - let it fire everything and rule that it actually has 4 launchers in the wings that allow for this. Having the ability to dish out this much punishment in one turn then the speed and maneuverability to dance with an opponent at extreme laser battery range and pick it to pieces if it survived the initial assault makes this very much a craft to be reckoned with as it can be used to nullify the higher HP of sathar destroyers in the first turn whereas if it must remain in close proximity with said destroyer for multiple turns in order to launch all its rockets that destroyer is going to pound it to scrap since it cant take much punishment.

The natural tactics with this ship is the high speed pass on a larger ship- to gut it for the frigates and cruisers to move in and finish it. Wings of 2-4 assault scouts would be very effective doing this. and the book's description of the numerous patrol groups being 2 assault scouts and a frigate would seem to fit that as well. For that matter the militias that sport more than assault scouts in their order of battle would seem to support this as well.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
October 2, 2013 - 8:42am
I've always played it as one launcher with a magazine for the assault rockets, torpedos, and rocket batteries.  Although jedi's arguement for multiple launchers does make a lot of sense.
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Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
October 2, 2013 - 8:51am
Normally, Terl, I just divided it in half.
Ex: RBx4 and Tx2 = 2 Rocket Batteries with 2 salvos and 1 Torpedoe launcher with 2 torpedoes.

jedion357's picture
jedion357
October 2, 2013 - 12:17pm
By the rules a civilian HS 3 ship could hold 3 launchers as the MHS is for the launcher not the rocket itself. The Assault scout is a military design with a greater degree of miniaturization so I dont thing pushing it to 4 launchers is a big deal, like the rest of its capabilities that dont match the civilian rule set.

I'm going to play them that way from now on unless someone has a compelling arguement against.

I did not check the cubic space of the launchers against the internal hull space but either way launcher or rocket they have the same cubic space- I generally consider a launcher to hold one rocket free without deducting for magazine space so the point is rather moot as either way this ship is holding those rockets.

What gets interesting with this arguement is a fighter hull MHS is 1 for the launcher and fighters are generally HS1, UPF fighters have 3 rockets so.. it would only fire them one at a time it would seem. Though a Thruster class privateer, HS 2 armed with Assault rockets (four of them I believe), could salvo 2/turn. However the assault scout is clearly the big little ship in the interstellar battlefield.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
October 2, 2013 - 4:04pm
I was never cozy with the minimalist fighter holds of carriers in the game. I essentially doubled the canon 5-8 and max 12 rule.

Jaxon wrote:
I did come up with a Escort Carrier. 
Basically the same crew as a destroyer (50 men) and then 30 for flight crews and the remaining 20 for Command and Boarding Parties. 
It's almost half the size of an Assault Carrier but, where the smallest Assault Carrier carriers 5 fighters the Escort Carrier carries like 2-4, I settled on 3. It may seem small but it is roughly proportional.


 

I stumbled across the Escort Carrier a few years ago and made them HS:10 for a 6 fighter hold plus two heavy fighters (HS:2 craft) and boasting decent armament.


One more that I incorporated it into my Star Fighter Corps campaign is the Scout Carrier. I specced them as refurbished Pacific class freighters (a class-name I gave to the Gullwind) whose hold had been converted to accept six bays (one per HS:1 fighter). Additional decks were added to accomodate the quarters for the larger crews. It was  a tactical craft that could ferry fighters much faster than the standard carriers, launching them, booking out from the battlefield quickly, and returning to collect them afterwards. Armament was the Gullwind-fair single LB, and the Pan Galactic Eureka drives were retained for the ADF:4 performance.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
October 2, 2013 - 3:50pm
I go by the one launcher + magazine for the slug throwers (AR, RB, and T). Granted I have designed ships with more than one launcher, meaning they can fire of two per turn when equipped with two launchers.

jedion357 wrote:

I'm going to play them that way from now on unless someone has a compelling arguement against.

In my game civilians can not legally purchase assault rockets or torpedoes. Being a deep space game, I was never fond of having limited ammunition anyways. Wink
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
October 2, 2013 - 4:18pm
Shadow, do you have the stats for those Carriers?

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
October 2, 2013 - 4:24pm
Other ship classes I incorporqated were Sculls, Clippers, Skiffs, Barks, and Sloops (all civilian craft, HS:2, 3, 4, & 5 respectively).

Other craft I incorporated I swiped from the Traveller game: Fleet Escorts, Couriers, System Defense Ships, Gunned Escorts, Cutters, Pinnaces, and such.

Military ships I have would include Assault Cruisers (HS:15 to fit right between the canon light & heavy cruisers) along with HS:20+ dreadnaughts such as Strike Carriers (48 fighters), Fleet Carriers (72 fighters), Strike Cruisers, Battle Cruisers, and the big HS:50 Frontier Cruiser.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
October 2, 2013 - 4:30pm
Jaxon wrote:
Shadow, do you have the stats for those Carriers?

Off the top of my head...

Scout Carrier
HS:6 HP:30 ADF/MR: 4/3 DCR:35
Weapons: LB; 6 fighters
Defenses: RH


Escort Carrier 
HS:10 HP:60 ADF/MR: 3/2 DCR:90
Weapons: RB (x4), LB(x2); 6 fighters + 2 hvy fighters
Defenses: RH, MS (x2), ICM (x4)


I'd have to dig up the assualt cruiser and dreadnaughts.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
October 2, 2013 - 4:38pm
I don't get how a blue water carrier can carry squadrons of fighters or jets but, an Assault Carrier can't carry one.

Malcadon's picture
Malcadon
October 3, 2013 - 8:37pm
jedion357 wrote:
Does the escort carrier reflect a civilian or military build?

Well, on the wiki, I noted it as a "Paramilitary Ship" - A civilian ship built for combat, but is not a warship. I could easily make it Military, but that would mean that they are limited to (and have to be incorporated into) large fleets like the UPF.

(Note: I was unaware of that the ship was being addressed on this site when I found it the SF Wiki - I get an e-mail for nearly any change made at the wiki)

Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
October 4, 2013 - 8:23am
no problem, Mal. It's just a discussion and spit balling


Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
November 14, 2013 - 9:34pm
I have completed two new ships classes - Woolworth class Escort Carrier and the Sloop. The Woolworth is based off of a Timeon Clipper hull. The Sloop is a design by the Yazirians upon arriving to the Frontier. It was short lived, as when Assault Scouts and Frigates came about, they packed more firepower, speed and armor in some cases. They were not a match.

I placed them under "Militias of the Frontier"

Thanks to everyone for the help and sorry if I missed anyone.

Sargonarhes's picture
Sargonarhes
November 15, 2013 - 9:48pm
When you consider the MHS of a laser battery compared to that of a rocket battery, I still can't see why you can't have a frigate drop the rocket battery for a second laser battery and use the laser batteries as an anti-aircraft role making it an escort frigate. For that matter you could or should be able to get the same or better results like that with a HS 6 destroyer.

And yes, I would twist the rules enough to load a battleship up with 4 laser cannons
In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same.

jedion357's picture
jedion357
November 16, 2013 - 5:35am
I like the idea of and escort frigate. Couple of other ideas for it besides the laser batteries: 1). The piston lasers or pod lasers load the ship with two to a side (port & starboard) they are FF weapons i believe but you simply treat them as FF on the side they are facing. They not worth much as weapons but would play a role in supressing fighters. 2.) Secondly load up the ship with ICM. Do the rules allow a shipp to use its ICM for other ships in the same hex?
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Sargonarhes's picture
Sargonarhes
November 16, 2013 - 7:40am
How about this, instead of just pod lasers why not use pod laser turrets giving them a greater field of fire. And I do think the rules allow for using ICM for other ships in the same hex. Being an escort frigate you'd likely want to drop some of it's offensive systems like torpedos but might want to keep the laser cannon. It's role is escort so you don't want it's crew to get too over confident and think they can go on the offensive.
In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same.

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
November 17, 2013 - 12:47pm
I have the Pod Laser Turret in my game, slightly shorter range at 40K (versus the 50K on the standard FF system) but 360º field of fire and a MHS:2 for use in heavy fighters. 

This also opens more doors for civilian ships...
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
November 17, 2013 - 4:30pm
I'll try to whip one up.

jedion357's picture
jedion357
November 18, 2013 - 5:35am
@Jaxon: I like Shadow's recommendation on this, lose most of the offensive capabilities drop the rocket battery for a second LB and add two pod laster turrets and perhaps increase the number of ICM, and since a MS impacts firing of lasers perhaps dropping some or all of its MS capability.

I then think we should come up with 3 or more scenarios involving this ship for the FE.

I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Jaxon's picture
Jaxon
November 18, 2013 - 1:26pm
I posted two ships - Escort Frigate and Escort Sloop. It is under Militias of the Frontier. 

The Hydra Escort Frigate is based on the UPF Spacefleet Frigate. The basic changes are with weapons and defenses:

Weapons: LC, PLT x 6, RB x2 
Defenses: Decoy, RH, ICM x2 (4 salvos each)

The Chakahn class Escort Sloop is based on the Chithry class Sloop. This vessel is a Yazirian vessel and a radiacal change from the Chithry: decreased HP, increased ADF, all new weapon systems and an extra ICM ammo added:

HP: 25
ADF: 4
Weapons: 2 Pod Lasers – Long Range, 4 Pod Laser Turrets, 1 Rocket Battery (4salvos) 
Defenses: Reflective Hull, ICM x 1 (8 salvos)

There have been discussions about an escort vessel but, this takes on the idea but, from two different perspectives - Spacefleet and Yazirian.