Swimming

jedion357's picture
jedion357
January 24, 2013 - 8:28am
Page 20 of AD original rule book has the rules for swimming. Everybody swims for 1 hour free then loses 5 STA every half hour of continuous swimming after that. Do we like this rule? Should that apply to a character in full equipment?
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!
Comments:

Ascent's picture
Ascent
January 24, 2013 - 9:37am
Apparently everyone in the future are supermen. Make it 20 minutes and then -5 STA every 10 minutes after that. (And I'm being conservative.) I like the drain in STA. Something similar would be useful for running.

Swimming wears people out fast, particularly in colder waters. If the waters are above or below 77-81 degrees, fatigue increases. In other words, if you're swimming anywhere but on Volturnus, in a desert or in a heated swimming pool, you're going to wear out quicker.
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Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
January 24, 2013 - 12:35pm
And penalties for vrusk, who naturally dislike immersion for obvious reasons. 

I would say they are restricted to the back stroke with their abdomens curled/raised above the water, combined with hands and feet with symmetrical digits that don't lend themselves well for water propulsion.
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

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iggy's picture
iggy
January 27, 2013 - 6:07pm
I like Ascent's take of speeding up the fatigue factor.  It did read like supermen.  This leads me to think of stamina as being physically fit.  The higher the stamina the more fit you are.  I can also see special racial rules for other races.  Humans and yazirians are likely the same rule.   Vrusk likely wear down faster,  as do dralasites.  Osakar and ifshnit likely endure swimming longer.  I'm thinking a natural ability to blend with and encourage the development of the ifshnit seafaring past.  I'm not sure about humma, but I gather they don't endure well as swimmers.  They are not really built for it.
-iggy

jedion357's picture
jedion357
January 27, 2013 - 6:16pm
actually a dralasite inflates air pockets with in himself and becomes his own life vest.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
January 28, 2013 - 7:36am
thinking you have things a little backward iggy vrusk have eight legs with very flexible jionts so that as long as they keep their breathing clear they are probably the fastest backstrokers around     not to mention an exoskeleton is better suited to water then skin or fur less drag                                                         now yazirians are probably the worst swimmers of the core four they evolved to glide so those skin flaps are only going to cause drag in the water and unless their fur is like an otters then we have wet yazirian smell to deal with
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
January 28, 2013 - 2:38pm
The vrusk description specifically states "this arrangement makes it difficult for vrusk to swim".

Assuming their bodies aren't in a permanent right angle (torso/abdomen), the back stroke is their only possibility of swimming. And if that angled structure is not flexible, well now you have serious drag when doing the backstroke or they must attempt holding their breath and dog paddle.

Added to that their hands & feet aren't exactly shaped well for moving water, their digits are arranged like a starfish at the end of a limb --- in other words they can't cusp their digits into a paddle-like shape. It's like trying to stir soup broth with a fork instead of a spoon...it works, but just barely.
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

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jedion357's picture
jedion357
January 28, 2013 - 6:04pm
And this is why a vrusk team has never won the water ballet a the Pan Galaxy Games.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Ascent's picture
Ascent
January 28, 2013 - 8:01pm
Um, has no one seen rowing teams? The more legs, the better. I don't see what's wrong with their feet. Their feet may be arranged in star pattern, but that doesn't mean they can't put two digits together. Besides, jellyfish and squid seem to swim just fine without paddles on every tentacle.

It isn't about the surface area of one leg. It's about the surface area of all their legs together. Their star-patterned feet could actually lend to propulsion by touching their tips with each forward thrust in a similar way to the propulsion of jellyfish.

Personally, I think they would be superior swimmers.

As for Yazirians, who is to say that flaps wouldn't help them swim? Certainly they have control of their flaps for flight as well as swimming. Manta rays swim quite well with flaps. There's nothing that says Yazirian flaps don't have that kind of control. It makes sense, in fact, that they would. What would slow them down is their fur, but even that is resolved if their fur has oil in it that allows them to swim with minimal friction.
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Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
January 28, 2013 - 9:20pm
Hmm...muscular control instead of inanimate skin. There's nothing in the text to work against it, I could go with that.

Ascent wrote:
Their feet may be arranged in star pattern, but that doesn't mean they can't put two digits together.

Sure, they can put two together. But putting all five together is another story...note how their weapons are "squeeze bulbs" instead of pistol grips. If they put all their fingers/toes together it makes a point not a paddle.


Quote:
Besides, jellyfish and squid seem to swim just fine without paddles on every tentacle. It isn't about the surface area of one leg. It's about the surface area of all their legs together. Their star-patterned feet could actually lend to propulsion by touching their tips with each forward thrust in a similar way to the propulsion of jellyfish.

And now it's my turn to remind you about tentacles versus articulated limbs. Wink 

Even if those fingers were tentacle-like, they aren't long enough to produce squid-like propulsion. You'd essentially be attempting to move a fully laden tractor-trailer using eight weedeater engines (or ten if you count the arms).

Quote:
Personally, I think they would be superior swimmers.

Possibly, with a varied physiology. Still, the descriptive text in the AD races section says otherwise.
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

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rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
January 29, 2013 - 4:33am
Yazirian skin flaps are similar to flying squirrels which is the basis for those new flying suits cliff divers use. They stretch out from attached parts of the body and are controlled by moving the body parts they are attached too. These guys are forest dwelling tree gliders not ocean living sting rays. Bonus to swimming for skin flaps is pushing an advantage they do not have.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
February 1, 2013 - 7:33pm
Review

Humans swim but lose 5 Sta points after 20 minutes
Yazirians swim but lose 5 Sta points after 10 minutes due to the drag of their gliding skin flaps
Vrusk swim but don't like to and lose 5 Sta after 5 minutes due to having their breathing holes in the water.
Dralasites can't just dive into the water since they would just sink. They need to not only configure limbs better suited to swimming but also a breathing pole since they breath through their skin some must be kept above the water.

Very few rules should be generic to all four races. They are very different and should be treated as such. 
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
February 2, 2013 - 1:07pm
rattraveller wrote:

Vrusk swim but don't like to and lose 5 Sta after 5 minutes due to having their breathing holes in the water.

Assuming they are not doing the back stroke. There isn't anything in canon that says a vrusk can or can't flatten out, but I postulate that they are able to assume a crawling/prone position so I permit them to flex as such for a back stroke.
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Ascent's picture
Ascent
February 3, 2013 - 5:53pm
Shadow Shack wrote:
Ascent wrote:
Their feet may be arranged in star pattern, but that doesn't mean they can't put two digits together.

Sure, they can put two together. But putting all five together is another story...note how their weapons are "squeeze bulbs" instead of pistol grips. If they put all their fingers/toes together it makes a point not a paddle.
Quote:
Besides, jellyfish and squid seem to swim just fine without paddles on every tentacle. It isn't about the surface area of one leg. It's about the surface area of all their legs together. Their star-patterned feet could actually lend to propulsion by touching their tips with each forward thrust in a similar way to the propulsion of jellyfish.

And now it's my turn to remind you about tentacles versus articulated limbs. Wink 
Even if those fingers were tentacle-like, they aren't long enough to produce squid-like propulsion. You'd essentially be attempting to move a fully laden tractor-trailer using eight weedeater engines (or ten if you count the arms).

I wasn't referring to the fingers in regard to jellyfish and the like. (Though, I shouldn't give such consideration, as invertibrates of that sort swim with jet propulsion.) I was referring to the fact that Vrusk have 8 limbs. And the fact is, swimming is about surface area. 8 limbs make for a whole lot of surface area, which should make Vrusk capable, and possibly speedy, swimmers. They're basically just like two humans put together. They would take a similar swimming pattern to humans, alternating between pushing their limbs out for propulsion, and pulling them in for aquatic gliding, as well as undulating body motions for dolphin-like swimming as with professional swimmers.

As for Yazirians, I'll give the point to Rat.
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jedion357's picture
jedion357
February 4, 2013 - 5:16am
RE: yazirians swimming

Granted the pataguim would create a lot of drag swimming and for that matter hover cycling but as was shown in that picture in the most recent Sfman of all the races in their space suits the yazirian can "tie" his pataguim up close to his body.

I would imagine that the yazirian version of swimming trunks involves provitions for this. No doubt a defensive suit does too. If a yaz wearing such an outfit desires to glide he just releases the catches or unties the strings holding back the pataguim.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
February 4, 2013 - 2:45pm
Rules I listed were for just jumping in the water or falling in or being pushed or as happens most times being chased off a cliff by Sathar bioconstructs and diving into a raging river (really bad for Dralasites).

Yazirians could get body ties so they have less drag but then again Humans could get fins, Vrusk could get breathing tubes like snorkels around their bodies and Dralasites coud get Vimh to push them through the water.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

jedion357's picture
jedion357
February 4, 2013 - 7:38pm
Actually I suspect that ties to pull back the pataquim are probably fairly common in yaz clothing.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Ascent's picture
Ascent
February 5, 2013 - 4:37am
I would think tie-backs would probably be standard on just about all informal Yazirian clothing and especially uniforms and protective suits.
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rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
February 5, 2013 - 4:46am
Probably not. Having your pataquim free and ready would be the natural state for a Yazirian. To deliberately restrict yourself even in situations where it would not normally present gliding opportunities (like living in a city) would be to go against the natural body movement freedom of Yazirians.

Unless they live in a society where they social standards are very restrictive the safe assumption is that the do NOT tie up their pataquim. Otherwise start watching alot of Downton Abbey and play the Yazirians that way.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

Ascent's picture
Ascent
February 5, 2013 - 6:14am
Since they would not have need of their glide flaps in 99.9% of most situations, it would likely be that they would want to keep from letting the glide flaps get in their way all the time. They are sapient advanced tool users that use tools far more than they use their glide flaps. Chances are, their use of tools trumps their glide preparedness. Besides, it's not like it's some chore to untie or unsnap tie-backs. It's easily a free action.
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rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
February 5, 2013 - 9:31am
on phone so please excuse this is an important point you are not thinking like a yazirian the pataquim is not a tool or a useful thing attached to their bodies it is a part of their genetic makeup it is a part of their identities think like this going bald is certainly much easier than growing out your hair quick shave in the morning and your done but do most humans go bald or do they spend hundreds of hours taking care of their hair along with hundreds of dollars every year some go bald for work or safety but even cancer patients wear wigs to feel better about themselves  yazirians would feel the same about their pataquims tying them up for no reason would just be against their nature
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
February 5, 2013 - 12:52pm
I'm in the camp that a yazirian has his flaps unsecured and is naturally accustomed to their existence in any natural action.

Remember the scene in Star Wars when the imperial spy is directing the stormtroopers to docking bay 94? The alien spy with the snout hits himself in said proboscis while directing the troopers. That would never happen, that's a human reaction to something a human doesn't have, not an alien reaction to something he was born with and worked around for his entire life.
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

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iggy's picture
iggy
February 5, 2013 - 1:10pm
I also see yazirians not binding their wing membranes in every day use.
-iggy

Ascent's picture
Ascent
February 5, 2013 - 6:28pm
rattraveller wrote:
on phone so please excuse this is an important point you are not thinking like a yazirian the pataquim is not a tool or a useful thing attached to their bodies it is a part of their genetic makeup it is a part of their identities think like this going bald is certainly much easier than growing out your hair quick shave in the morning and your done but do most humans go bald or do they spend hundreds of hours taking care of their hair along with hundreds of dollars every year some go bald for work or safety but even cancer patients wear wigs to feel better about themselves  yazirians would feel the same about their pataquims tying them up for no reason would just be against their nature
Hair is a part of our genetic make-up, but it doesn't stop people with long hair from tying it back when they have duties to perform or simply to keep it off their neck. I would think corporations and government employers would see untied guide flaps as a risk and would thus have rules for tying them back. Tie-backs would thus be common. Yazirians may see glide flaps as symbols, but the literature doesn't say so. So such a claim would be strictly flavor in one's personal games. But then, so would tie-backs (which would really be a player's call) and not affect the game. But if you approach it realistically, safety and avoiding annoyance would likely take precedence for a rage-inclined race.
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jedion357's picture
jedion357
February 5, 2013 - 7:09pm
Whether or not yaz tie back their pataquim I for everyday stuff, there is no getting around that cycling (hover or ground) and swimming would involve serious drag if they didnt tie them back. it makes more sense that their clothing has tie backs then something like velcro which would tangle up their hair, they are going to have some provision for those activities even if they are loose and free tree climbing hippies.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
February 6, 2013 - 6:14pm

I agree with the situation requiring special clothing Yazirians would wear clothing that helps but for everyday wear.... well I didn't want to go there but for those who still think Yazirians are just hairy Humans here goes:

Yazirians are known for battle rage. What you are telling me is a race that has a genetic predisposition to losing control deliberately ties themselves down. Really? These are the freedom, loving let the fur fly, gangbusters of the core four and you say they tie themselves up in their clothing everyday. Maybe they really liked "The Incredible Hulk" scenes of busting out of your clothes but not seeing that as practical.

Yazirians have more planets with them as single race than the other races. This means they have cities built for Yazirians by Yazirians. Are you thinking they have lots of one story buildings and sidewalks? Think Yazirian! Multiple story buildings with glide paths between them. Of course they have zip lines to comply with the Yazirians with Disabilities Act but their cities are built for their natural movement which includes gliding so NO tie downs going on.

Swimming and Cycling are not common activities but we give them the special clothing like Humans wear when they swim or cycle.

BIGGER question do Yazirian spacesuits allow for the pataquim to be free? I would say YES. Floating for a Yazirian would feel extremely unnatural if they could not spread out. Might have to give them penalties if they tried moving in free fall in a Human spacesuit.

I also differ to Jedion for what normal Dralasite architecture would look like.

Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

Ascent's picture
Ascent
February 7, 2013 - 11:40am
I appreciate the picture you painted about architectural design and Yazirian culture, but I don't think culture would be a factor, but that safety would take precedence. And as I said, because of their rage, they would tie them back or they might fly into a frenzy five times a day because their glide flaps keep getting in the way.

On a side note, in response to your word picture, I don't think there would be a lot of cities the size of New York in the Frontier, especially since the populations of most planets in the Frontier are less than the entire population of New York. I don't think Yazirians would be in the business of building high buildings just so they could all glide around. However, they would possibly be most comfortable in a city among massive trees, but even that would not give a lot of occasion for gliding, because what goes down must first come up, and Yazirian gliding does not allow for riding thermals upward.

Seeing as you don't actually glide in space, glide flaps would not matter to a Yazirian. They're going to feel just as disoriented with or without them. They would just be able to deal with the euphoria better than humans because of their familiarity with the feeling of weightlessness. (Which is different than actually trying to move while weightless.)
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rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
February 7, 2013 - 7:39pm
Ascent you have got to be kidding with me right? Intelligent beings not doing something because it isn't safe? Ever heard of states with no helmet laws for motorcycles? Bungy jumping? Cars that can do 150 MPH when there is no where outside the Autobahn to drive them? Football? Face it safety only comes into effect when enough people get hurt and complain and then only when they agree to it.

Why does everyone go to NYC? I live in a city of 40,000 and it is built along the lines of all cities. Yazirian cities would be built up along the lines that developed when they started to civilize themselves. Gliding is a part of them and they would incorporate it into their cities no matter how big. Heck they might incorporate it into their houses. Even if it means they have to climb up to do it.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

Ascent's picture
Ascent
February 7, 2013 - 9:42pm
rattraveller wrote:
Ascent you have got to be kidding with me right? Intelligent beings not doing something because it isn't safe? Ever heard of states with no helmet laws for motorcycles?
I never said there were no such thing as thrill-seekers or people with no regard for their own safety, but such are few and far between, and I think it would be the same for any species. It's called survival instinct. I'm talking about individuals being aware of their own hazards. It's like tying shoes or not wearing loose clothes around moving equipment.
rattraveller wrote:
Bungy jumping?
To quote Wikipedia: "Several million successful jumps have taken place since 1980. This safety record is attributable to bungee operators rigorously conforming to standards and guidelines governing jumps, such as double checking calculations and fittings for every jump."
rattraveller wrote:
Cars that can do 150 MPH when there is no where outside the Autobahn to drive them?
Again, laws. If someone wants to defy those laws, they take their life into their own hands.
rattraveller wrote:
Football?
You would do better to refer to TMA. (But then, the answer for that is simply thrill junkies. It's not a society-wide pasttime.) While concussions are high in football, deaths are relatively few. But that's not the problem is it? The question is safety. They wear helmets, shoulder armor, mouth guards, finger and hand protection and cups. They're not exactly reckless.
rattraveller wrote:
Face it safety only comes into effect when enough people get hurt and complain and then only when they agree to it.
Really? So if you keep having accidents personally, you just keep on chugging along and wait for someone else to complain before you do something for yourself? If you're always hitting your head or burning yourself, you don't remove the obstacle, move away from it, pad it or cover it up? Your assumptions about how personal safety concerns arise seem naive at best.
rattraveller wrote:
Why does everyone go to NYC? I live in a city of 40,000 and it is built along the lines of all cities. Yazirian cities would be built up along the lines that developed when they started to civilize themselves. Gliding is a part of them and they would incorporate it into their cities no matter how big. Heck they might incorporate it into their houses. Even if it means they have to climb up to do it.
Seriously? 40,000? You have a few 12 story buildings and maybe one or two 40 story buildings and you're backing your theory with that? Sorry, man, but there's just not enough there. And I will continue to disagree with you. The concept you came up with is that every Yazirian would be using their gliding all the time and that the business culture would be built around it. I disagree, especially considering that Yazirians are the foremost fleet operators. They clearly aren't looking for every opportunity to use their guide flaps. It seems to me, from the basic literature, that they have greater concerns.

And seriously, do you really think that Yazirians would completely ignore their own safety after millions of years of many, many accidents on account of guide flaps and hundreds of years of interacting with other species and possessing some of the most advanced technology in the Frontier? So they're just going to completely ignore any problems that arise because of loose glide flaps? A bunch of Yazirians walking around with scarred up guide flaps because they refuse to consider safety concerns?

Your argument is basically this: Because it takes many people to complain for safety to become a concern, no Yazirian in his right mind would be interested in safety concerns about their guide flaps. — That's not exactly compelling. Not even in the ballpark.
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iggy's picture
iggy
February 7, 2013 - 11:42pm
Your both right.  Don't think human.  Think Yazirian.  They evolved with skin between their arms and legs.  Nature has likely provided some protection from daily hazards of life in the trees.  The closest parallel we have are flying squirrels and they seem to not rip themselves up.  Now they get smart and try doing more hazardous things.  They will have developed cultural practices to protect themselves.  Hence the talk in past threads of nets and balconies in yazirian construction.  Will a yazirian tie his wing membrains back, yes.  Will they do it all the time, no.  Fashion and culture will even come into play for both cases.  You may have even hit upon clan dress practices where some clans tie up based on some practical need that was once part of their ancestral occupation.  Then another clan may refuse to tie up out of some purity of the tree life line of reasoning.  Family of One might preach this.

just trying to think like a yazirian.  I'd love my wing membranes and both protect and enjoy them.  It's part of what makes me not a hairless human. 
-iggy

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
February 8, 2013 - 4:06am
I would like to bring up one other minor point. Look through the rulebooks, magazines, modules, and artwork posted in these forums. Do you see any pictures of Yazirians with tied down pataquims?
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?