Cargo Unit Questions

jedion357's picture
jedion357
October 23, 2011 - 7:44am
A HS1 shuttle IIRC could transport 1 cargo unit, a HS2 shuttle could transport 2 cargo units.

How much of a cargo unit could a jet copter carry? Lets suppose there is a heavy lift cargo copter as well.

What about a truck?
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!
Comments:

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
October 23, 2011 - 3:40pm
Not much.

Put into perspective, take a gander at the cargo tables in the KH book. A unit of jetcopters costs 30K at the source and 75K at destination.

Now keep in mind, Jetcopter Jim's dealership isn't going to pay full retail to have copters shipped from their source. He has to buy that 75K unit of jetcopters at a price where he can make a profit on them when he sells them at his dealership. Remember, he also has to pay to ship the copters from the space station to the surface once the freighter drops them off...

Your standard SF jetcopter is listed at 40K in the AD book. So that "unit" of jetcopters is easily comprised of at least three copters, each with a limited amount of "hold" area for stowage (500kg/5 cubic meters). Consider that the three+ copters takes up a full "unit" worth of space and the entire copter itself is not a cargo container, only a fraction of that copter volume is dedicated toward stowing cargo.


Further illustrating the shortcomings of a cargo "unit".


And IIRC, the cargo unit is only applicable to freighters which start out at HS:5. If a 10x2 meter HS:1 ship could contain one cargo unit, how many of those 10x2 ships could you fit into the Gullwind's cargo hold (20m diameter with an easy 40 meter height)? Yeah, you could park six to eight in a circle on the floor alone and have 6-8 cargo units capacity, with plenty of room to spare.

In that regard, my 1 unit capacity on the RT-3100 merchant scout (HS:3) is pretty generous.

Nay, a shuttle (to which I would designate as HS:2 minimum) would carry a single jetcopter at best, or half a unit in my game (which, again, is rather generous). On that note, back to "how many copters per unit"...how much would it cost to transport copters one at a time from station to surface?  The fuel "load" alone is 250CrxHS, and the shuttle owner won't fly it for free let alone at just the simple cost of fuel. You're easily looking at shelling out 1000Cr just to move a single copter from the station to the spaceport, and unless Jetcopter Jim has his own ground transports he will be paying to ship them from starport to dealership, after all if he flies them to his dealership they're no longer "new"...so three copters per unit is also generous, and the only reason I wouldn't make it four is the fact that my 0.5u shuttles would be able to ferry them two at a time, thus deflating their value at Jetcopter Jim's dealership Wink
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

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TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
October 23, 2011 - 4:32pm
Yes, the "cargo unit" concept needs a serious overhaul.  It scales linearly with hull size while volume scales geometrically.  This is something that I think needs some serious work.  We started on it in the KH 2.0 area, I believe.

Shadow Shack's evaluation is spot on I think however for the point of how much a jetcoper could carry.  The answer is very little.

However, if you have a special heavy lift helecopters like the Skirosky CH-54 Skycrane (I always used to call them the grasshopper helicopters when I was a kid living on the Army helicopter school base (Ft. Rucker, AL).) I'd probably give that a sizable fraction of a cargo unit, say 1/4 to 1/2.

In the KH 2.0 thread, I proposed that we define a cargo unit to be 150 cubic meters in volume.  That's the size of a 53 foot semi-trailer.  A HS 1 ship couldn't carry cargo, it's too small.  A HS 2 ship could carry 1 cargo unit and still have room for other stuff.  A HS 3 ship could have 3 or 4 cargo units (I don't remember the exact value), and ti would go up from there.  Of course you'd have to rework all the commodities tables based on that.

Anyway, with that specification of the cargo unit, I'd say your heavy lift jetcopter could probably carry an entire cargo unit at a single time.  (The CH-54 had a 9000 kg cargo lift capacity).


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jedion357's picture
jedion357
October 23, 2011 - 6:21pm
So a heavy lift copter probably be slower but carry more its not concerned with speed at all but I suppose the air lorry from Zebs could be used as well.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
October 23, 2011 - 7:14pm
There definitely needs to be a space/volume definition. Whatever open space is set aside as a hold, that's how much cargo can be carried. That's one thing I admired about the Traveller game, everything took up a certain amount of space...drives chewed up A amount of space, the computer took up B amount of space, a crew/passenger cabin took up C space, the bridge took up D space, so on down the line until all viable systems were accounted for. Whatever space was left over became the hold.

I picked up a book from a game called "Shatterzone" a few years back and it has a similar system, albeit they utilize what is coined as "bays". You have engine bays, computer bays, weapon bays, crew bays, so on and so forth. Anything that wasn't utilized became a hold.


Again, I'll reference the Gullwind.


It has a cargo hold that is roughly 40% of the overall craft at best. Assuming standard KH dimensions, she would be 20m at her girth and 130m from stem to stern, or a total of (pi * r^2)*L = 40,820 cubic meters. 40% of that (the hold) comes out to 16,328 cubic meters, or 6 units by KH definitions.

Now apply that very same math to a HS:18 freighter...85m in diameter and 500m long or 2,835,813 cubic meters. Assuming a similar 40% allocation for its "18 unit hold", the hold capacity is 1,134,325 cubic meters.

Now look at the math --- 6 unit hold times a factor of three for the HS:18 vessel yields 18 units a la KH rules. Simple math says that the 40% space allocation of 40,820 cubic meters times three equals 122,460 cubes, just a hair over ten percent of the above example. For a HS:18 freighter to stick to the same parameters for "unit" measurements, the hold would be a much smaller ratio to its size, begging the question of just what will the ship's less-than-20 crew be doing with all that extra not-cargo space in the ship.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

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Inigo Montoya's picture
Inigo Montoya
October 23, 2011 - 7:19pm
Shadow Shack wrote:
begging the question of just what will the ship's less-than-20 crew be doing with all that extra not-cargo space in the ship.


Hey, what happens in space, stays in space! Shatterzone. I remember buying that game...and doing nothing with it. It had cards with it IIRC.

So, does this mean that there will be an article and table concerning cargo units and cargo volumes/values in a future Frontiersman?

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
October 23, 2011 - 7:23pm
I'd love to sit down with a few people that know what they're doing (I won't claim to be the best at math despite a willingness to resort to it in order to prove a point) and hash out a space/volume system for KH. This KH 2.0 project that Terl mentioned sounds just like what I would like to sit with.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

jedion357's picture
jedion357
October 23, 2011 - 8:01pm
I think a rough rule of thumb average of the mass of a space unit equals x . A hull has whatever number of space units its volume should hold and a ship building system based on space with a mass to thrust calculation dictating the number and size of engines. Naturally this will give us true battle ships bristling with weapons but that's an adjustment I could go with though it will require volley fire resolved with one dice roll to keep combat from bogging down.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Inigo Montoya's picture
Inigo Montoya
October 24, 2011 - 8:13am

I always feel a little violated after doing serious math. However, I am very interested in a resolution to our cargo unit dilemma. I'll pop over to KH 2.0 and see what is transpiring there. I just hope that the solution is uncomplicated. The original cargo unit was so under-thought that it is useless. But if the new solution requires a scientific calculator, it may be just as useless. My elementary and middle school kids are getting into SF and I would hate for them (and other young newcomers) to be overwhelmed. My oldest child has been sneaking around with my rulebooks as if they were dirty magazines, hiding them behind library and school books.


jedion357's picture
jedion357
October 24, 2011 - 10:03am
Inigo Montoya wrote:

I always feel a little violated after doing serious math. ks.

:) who was it that said serious math is like a prostate exam?
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Deryn_Rys's picture
Deryn_Rys
October 24, 2011 - 10:18am
I've always prefered to deal with space craft tonnage, as opposed to cargo units. A ship weighing 100 tons fully loaded would have about 70% of it's mass taken up by the neccessary systems (life support, crew quarters, powerplant, bulkheads, specialized compartments etc.) which would leave 30% or 30 tons of space that is used for cargo. Then instead of cargo units cargo is purchased by tonnage. In otherwards if the spacestation has 30 tons of robotic parts (instead of 30 units of cargo) and you have 30 tons of cargo space in your cargo hold you can fit it all in (simple system...no higher math required).
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TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
October 24, 2011 - 10:21am
I don't know that there is more in the KH 2.0 thread than I posted here (I'd have to check) but the idea was to just define the CU as a certain volume.  Then your ship could have a hold that can accomodate up to N cargo units.   Then we just define cargo volumes.  I.e. 1 cu of fuel pellet contains X pellets, weighs Y kg and costs Z cr at source and ZZ credits at destination, or 1 explorer takes up 1 cu of volume for shipment, a ground transport takes up 3 cu of volume, etc.  And then you could have scenarios like this: "We need to move 500 CU of food stuffs to Darkworld station, we'll pay you 800 cr per CU and an extra 100cr per unit if delivered by next Friday.  How much can you take?"

So with that definition and Shadows's numbers, the hold of the Gullwind would have ~109 cargo units of capacity and that HS 18 super freighter would have a cargo capacity of about 7562 cargo units.  It truth the larger ship would have even more capacity than that as I think as the ships get larger, the fraction devoted to hold gets bigger, not smaller.
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