Star Frontiers.org?

Identity Crisis's picture
Identity Crisis
October 16, 2011 - 12:49am

Sorry if this has already been brought up, but did the SF .org site close up?

Comments:

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
October 16, 2011 - 12:59am
Art is in the process of merging it with Tim's SF.com site ---


Hello Everyone!
As you may have noticed, StarFrontiers.org has been down in an off and on fashion the last week or so. What is happening is that the forums have been getting converted to a new database type (MySQL). This has been achieved, and now the forums are being converted to the phpBB3 software from Snitz2000.
Soon you will see StarFrontiers.org going to the same site as StarFrontiers.com, and we hope to use the same logo "Star Frontiers Network" with the .org/.com score under it. We want to show unity with this site...and while the .com/org site is still the "officially sanctioned" site in some ephemeral legal sense, We are going to be networked as closely as we can be. Hopefully, the .com/org site and the .info site will be able to act smoothly as a sort of backup community location for each other.
Tim at .com has taken over forum conversion from the first stage, and is now getting stage 2 done. I promise it won't be long!

Art
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Identity Crisis's picture
Identity Crisis
October 16, 2011 - 1:09am
Thank you for the info.

jedion357's picture
jedion357
October 16, 2011 - 1:18am
Is it me or does it seem that there is great concern over being "officially sanctioned"? I was under the impression that Bill had obtained the same level of official sanction and yet I find pointed statements at .com about they're the "official site." Am I missing something or is there some sort of turf war I was unaware of?

Funny how you can find links to .com and .org from this site but the reverse is not true. I'm not sure why unless it is about turf, sanction and official-ness. I'm scratching my head here. I dont think our hobby is so big that we really benefit from division- or is there some larger issue at work that I'm just missing?
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
October 16, 2011 - 8:24am
I believe the reason Tim is careful about the "offically sanctioned" issue is the fact that he got hammered on it a while ago.  He had permission from TSR to publish before WOTC bought them.  Someone at Steve Jackson games saw the site and reported it to WOTC and they came down hard on him before it all got sorted out (It even got to the point that Steve Jackson himself commented on it and slammed Tim.)  So I'm sure he is a bit sensitive about having that happen to him again.

It's a bit of a story but there was (is?) a bit of bad blood (or more just frustration between Art and Bill, as far as I know, Tim wasn't involved) that led to the creation of this site.  I don't know how much of that is still floating around.  (And I don't know the entire extent as I wasn't directly involved, just on the edges.)  Tim (at .com) has permission from WOTC to publish the original versions of the Star Frontiers material on-line.  From what I understand, Bill got permission to publish his original Remastered rules online as free downloads and permission to publish the Star Frontiersman online for free as well.  The saga of Tim's permission letter (and it's content) is posted on his site.  I've never seen Bill's letter so I don't know exactly what its extent is.


Ad Astra Per Ardua!
My blog - Expanding Frontier
Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site
Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine
Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine

jedion357's picture
jedion357
October 16, 2011 - 10:43am
I guess that makes sense. I can certainly understand someone being gun shy about a hammer coming sown on them but I couldn't help but notice that he has a link to your site. I just thought that I was picking up a vibe that there might be some division and it doesn't make any sense to me, that makes me wonder what I'm not getting. That's all.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

CleanCutRogue's picture
CleanCutRogue
October 16, 2011 - 12:24pm
TerlObar wrote:
It's a bit of a story but there was (is?) a bit of bad blood (or more just frustration between Art and Bill, as far as I know, Tim wasn't involved) that led to the creation of this site.  I don't know how much of that is still floating around.  (And I don't know the entire extent as I wasn't directly involved, just on the edges.)  Tim (at .com) has permission from WOTC to publish the original versions of the Star Frontiers material on-line.  From what I understand, Bill got permission to publish his original Remastered rules online as free downloads and permission to publish the Star Frontiersman online for free as well.  The saga of Tim's permission letter (and it's content) is posted on his site.  I've never seen Bill's letter so I don't know exactly what its extent is.

I hear people speculate this quite a bit.  As far as I am aware, there is/was no bad blood between me and Art.  I have a lot of respect for both Art and Tim.  Early on, I tried to get involved in their sites instead of making one of my own, and I had a lot of communication with Art by phone, email, and forum.  After some attempts, it was clear that Tim didn't have time for the hobby much any more.  Additionally, Art seemed content with his forums and site content, didn't seem to want to get involved with the webzine or the Digitally Remastered stuff.  That was fine, so we just do our own things.

The fact that we do separate stuff shouldn't imply there is conflict or bad blood.  If there is any, I'm not aware of it.  I link to them, I see them as long-time allies in the attempts to keep Star Frontiers alive.  They have been doing what we do longer and should be seen with a level of respect.  Many of the SF community post in Art's site and in ours.  If anyone knows for certain that Art or Tim have any specific bad feelings towards me or this site, please email me and let me know; there needs be no such division in our already small community.

Tim and I have compared our letters of permission.  Other than who signed them, they are mostly identical.  I have posted it on this site before somewhere.  The extents are the same: basically to "continue to do what you're doing until we say otherwise." 
3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time.

-top 11 reasons to be a Yazirian, ShadowShack


jedion357's picture
jedion357
October 16, 2011 - 12:58pm
Now that's an excellent explanation thank you Bill.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
October 16, 2011 - 1:05pm
That's about how I saw it...two sites with two different directions. Art promotes the KH Vector & Orbitter angle, Bill promotes the 'zine & remastered angle. Doesn't make either better than the other, it's just personal flavor.

Mix & match at your own risk Wink
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
October 16, 2011 - 2:23pm
And that's how I saw it as well, just not as eloquently said as Bill.  As far as I know, everyone is friends.
Ad Astra Per Ardua!
My blog - Expanding Frontier
Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site
Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine
Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine

AZ_GAMER's picture
AZ_GAMER
October 16, 2011 - 3:22pm
Steve Jackson, why doesn't that guy mind his own business and worry about making good games out of his company than concerning himself over a long retired TSR game that no one is making money off of. He should be so lucky that someone will care enough to resurrect one of his retired games and give it new life. I hope he, or one of his people reads this site, and see this. I will never purchase support, or recommed his products to anyone, ever. So Steve, may be take a page from the book on playing nice and learn to cooperate with people instead of just try to be a bully.

The same goes for Hasbro, Oprah, and WTOC, I will never purcahase, support, recommend, or endorse any product produced by this company with the exception of Star Frontiers (Which isn't an active product of theirs, so I guess my boycott is safe there.) And be certain, I will tell everyone I know, do business with, or have any contact with, to do the same.

I believe that people and companies do have the right to fiercely protect their intellectual and proprietary property. However! when you discard a product and choose not to publish it, produce, it, support it, or license it to others then It is my firm opinion that there is no longer a need to guard it away for all eternity and penalize those fans who have already spent their hard earned money on it from being able to keep it alive and active. It is the highest form of flatterly and if they were smart they could make a little additional legitmate money by licensing the product at a fair price so others can still enjoy it. It would be a different story if they planned on re-opening the product for a new release and if they planned on doing that they should just tell people that this is their plan. But we all know what this is about: Greed, Punishment, and unadulterated bully-ish behavior. SHAME ON THEM!

Refuse to support these companies, put your efforts, support, and ideas behind great small businesses like DWD Studios in creating new and exciting products that are offered to the public fairly with the spirit of respect for old school gaming and the enduring fun these games offer to players and their families accross the world.

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
October 17, 2011 - 3:04am
I'm actually curious if Mr. Jackasson made any kind of stink about the Jason Statham "Death Race" movie. It reminded me of Car Wars far more than it did the original Carradine/Stallone Death Race 2000 from which it spawned. I didn't see any DR2000 in that flick (save for the resurrection of two character names), all I saw was Car Wars being ripped off.

But by golly, don't let a few fans try to keep an out of print game alive.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Drammattex's picture
Drammattex
October 19, 2011 - 12:32pm
AZ_GAMER wrote:
The same goes for Hasbro, Oprah, and WTOC, I will never purcahase, support, recommend, or endorse any product produced by this company with the exception of Star Frontiers (Which isn't an active product of theirs, so I guess my boycott is safe there.) And be certain, I will tell everyone I know, do business with, or have any contact with, to do the same.

I know little about Steve Jackson Games (or Oprah) but I can speak from experience about WotC. It's easy to see WotC/Hasbro as a "big evil corporation," but I think it's important to keep in mind that the actual people who make the games are generally bright, talented, creative, and friendly gamers who happen to have scored a job doing it full time. Heck, Steve Winter works over there--the original editor of Star Frontiers! And he's a phenomenally awesome guy. Rich Baker, Mike Mearls, James Wyatt, Chris Perkins, Rodney Thompson, Peter Lee, just to name a few... these folks are wonderful people and they're really good designers. 

I'm not saying I agree with, or understand, everything the company does; I just feel that every product shouldn't be written off. There's some really great stuff coming out these days, imo.

On topic: I discovered Star Frontiers.com before I discovered this one. Dowloaded their pdfs, donated some money in appreciation for their efforts, and had some very friendly exchanges with Tim. I found this site when I googled "Star Frontiers miniatures" just because I was curious to see what they used to look like. Came here, downloaded the awesome content, bought some DwD stuff, and everybody here is awesome too. 

No matter how large (WotC) or small (Star Frontiers sites) the game, it's probably best if we stick together in this hobby/obsession and try to understand one another... despite our perhaps different gaming preferences.  Just my two and a half cents. 

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
October 19, 2011 - 1:42pm
Yeah, but all that still won't change one very important key element that led to SF's ultimate demise: 



Lorraine Williams still sucks.  Innocent


(Wouldn't that make for a great 30th Anniversary T-Shirt?)
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Drammattex's picture
Drammattex
October 19, 2011 - 3:01pm
Well, there is that.

Cool

Anonymous's picture
w00t (not verified)
October 19, 2011 - 3:22pm
Donations? 
Hrm.... a donations button. 
[wrings hands]
I'll be rich. Credits galore!
Muhahaha *cough*.... hahaha *cough*

Heh.

[Hillbily accent] "We here at sf.US try to provide da bestest star'ish frontierman'ish table game content in the hills. We'z, a, hopes you buys our products to show yours appreiations. Donations are axe-cepted in the form of SFman lulu prints." :-)

-The Network of Stars and Frontiersmen
(looking for single frontierswomen. PM me.)


AZ_GAMER's picture
AZ_GAMER
October 19, 2011 - 5:35pm

I Don't begrudge the workers at Hasbro / WTOC, but the management decision about Star Frontiers has absolutely no purpose other than to keep it locked in the vault. There is no excuse for it and no explanation from WOTC that makes any sense. It would be one thing if they planned on a re-launch which I think all of us would get behind. BUT we all know that is not the case. So I will continue my boycott of the company, until they do the right thing and offer licensing for the game. Just because the hard working rank and file are good people doesnt mean the company is doing the right thing, Need I mention why some boycott Blizzard.


Drammattex's picture
Drammattex
October 19, 2011 - 7:40pm
I understand the frustration. I know DragonLance fans feel something similar. Out of curiosity, why do some boycott Blizzard?

My nerd-rage boycott is Star Wars films. I just want the originals in high def; no revisionist stuff.

jedion357's picture
jedion357
October 20, 2011 - 4:22am
I,m not so sure I'd get behind WOTC relaunching Star Frontiers since I have no doubt that it would be a D20 complicated mess. Oh, I'd love seeing new artwork of the core four aliens but....I'd hate to see it changed to d20. I'm still working through the stages of grief from the last time a corporate type became actively involved in making decisions about my favorite game. (Thank you Shadow Shack for bringing up her name.)
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

jedion357's picture
jedion357
October 20, 2011 - 4:28am
On the issue of keeping it locked up in a vault: I can understand it since they included some limited elements from it in d20 Future. From a corporate business perspective the decision makes sense, sad and tragic but it does make some sense. They don't believe the market is there to make money on this but they want to keep their options open in case something changes in their perception of the market. Does it irk me? Hell yeah, but I get it.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Deryn_Rys's picture
Deryn_Rys
October 20, 2011 - 10:03am
Oh Jedion you purist youSmile

I don't think that Star Frontiers converted to a d20 style would be a complete failure If handled lovingly by someone who cared enough about it (looks around sheepishly at the Star Frontiers (URS) project.

I believe however that Wotc was trying to get the Star Frontiers, and for that matter the Alternity fans to give up their pursuit of those games and take up d20 Future since elements of both games were incorporated into d20 Future. In the same way as they incorporated elements of the Indiana Jones Role playing game into the D20 Past rules set.

In a perfect world they should reissue the classic games, or sell off the property rights to games that have not been pubished for 20 or more years but I think that they feel that the habits of the gaming community, have evolved beyond the scope of those games and the classic games would seem quaint and dated to their core audience, a generation of players who grew up saturated on video games and fast action movies.
"Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words
"Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words
"You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words
"Did you here that?" -Famous last words

jedion357's picture
jedion357
October 20, 2011 - 11:26am
I actually played in a online d20 future SF game and hated it. Hated the character generation part hated wading thru the SRD to figure things out. Plus I've invested 3 years plus onto d&d 3.5 and 4.0 and reached the conclusion that I just don't like the rule system. I don't like how the choice of class locks you into a railroad of character development making it very predictable what your character will look like in 20 levels with very very very small allowances for the piddly little +1 here and there for feat choices that don't really differentiate you character from another of the same class. Plus the combat system is so gawd awful slowwwwwwww. When one player's wife insisted that he had to attend dance class with her on d&d night forcing us to wait for him to start for 1/2 to 1 hour I ran AD rules SF during that time and one night got in 2 combats in 1/2 hour. Compare that to d&d with one combat taking the whole session! Sorry d20 has nothing to interest me. Plus I've seen better spell systems. Oh yeah and don't get started on "prestige classes" oops you didn't meet all the fiddly little requirements so you can't do that character concept you really wanted, Sucks to be you man. Or how about a game session where half the game session is spent in delay of game while crap is looked up in the freckin rule books. Yeah that's appealing. Oops just ranted. Bottom line is I've come to the conclusions that d20 like golf and root canals are just not my cup of tea.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Drammattex's picture
Drammattex
October 20, 2011 - 12:12pm
In my search for a good sf game, I went through my Alternity and d20 Future books before looking at Star Frontiers. Sadly, I only played Alternity once, and I never played d20 Future or Past (despite having purchased the books). I think the reason I never got into these games was because they were too complex for me. Systems and subsystems of very specific, fiddly mechanics, and the capacity to overshadow the other players via system mastery; this is also what (eventually) soured me on D&D 3e.  

I like D&D 4e better for the ways it departs from that tradition (i.e. since monsters and PCs use different rules, the DM has more freedom as storyteller), and due to its board game style combat mechanics, it's the ONLY version of D&D where I've been able to endure someone's hack & slash grindfest without wanting to slam my head into the table 'till it turns to pulp; those mechanics are interesting enough to at least keep me engaged in that action. On the other hand, while 4e combat takes less time than 3e combat, it still takes longer than I'd like. 

I've been playing lots of indie RPGs lately: Fiasco, Kagematsu, Dogs in the Vineyard, Don't Rest Your Head, Dread, Mouse Guard... and I feel like the looser the mechanics are, the more the players tend to role-play. Without tons of "game" options screaming for their attention, they're interacting with the game more as characters than as, well, game pieces, I guess. I feel like my wife (who was new to RPGs when we met) was a better role-player when she started than when she learned the rules. Analysis paralysis. 

Which brings me to Star Frontiers. 
As I read through the rulebooks, I was pleasantly surprised at how simple, yet encompassing the rules were written. Not only is it easy to customize, customization and world-building is actively encouraged in the rules. It's actually a lot (and I do mean a lot) like D&D 4e in principle--just doesn't have the loads of specific powers. At any rate, for me that simplicity of design equals more role-playing space. Star Frontiers characters have pretty basic skills and abilities; that's your skeleton, your structure. But it's up to you to flesh it out and add all the story details. Though the simple Perks & Flaws stuff as well as the ability mods to skills are very nice (and thankfully very light) touches. 

I still have a lot to do before the game is up and running, but I'm kind of in love with it at the moment. If I were to convert it to a d20 style, the only thing I'd do is switch the percentages to their d20 equivalents so that you were trying to roll high on a d20 instead of low on a d100. However, I don't care about that enough to actually invest the time. Smile

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
October 20, 2011 - 12:43pm
Drammattex wrote:
My nerd-rage boycott is Star Wars films. I just want the originals in high def; no revisionist stuff.

It's available, or rather it was available...long before the debut of the DVD player in a "medium-def" format. It's called the 12" Laser Disc, and I enjoy watching my remastered set often (remastered meaning restored, not altered like the DVD).

Sure, it's not quite as good as a standard DVD on a 720 flat screen, and certainly nowhere near a BLue Ray on a 1080 set --- but at the time it was just as effective as the DVD player was when it debuted. 475 lines per inch projection compared to the 650 of a standard DVD player...at the time all TVs projected at 425 so you couldn't tell the difference in the DVD's "superiority" beyond not having to flip the disc midway through the movie.

Running through a gen-1 5.1 amplifier (meaning post Dolby ProLogic but not quite up to today's standards...S-video cable is about as fancy as that one gets), it's more than acceptable on the CRT I watch it on for satisfying my rage on the issue. It sure beats dusting off the ol' VHS player.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Drammattex's picture
Drammattex
October 20, 2011 - 1:02pm
Ha! I think if I had a laser disc player and the discs of the original trilogy, I would be (mostly) content. :-D

TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
October 20, 2011 - 1:15pm
I have DVD's of the original trilogy.  They are each two disc sets, one disc has the "enhanced" version of the movie with all the changes Lucas had made to them up to that point.  The other disc in each set has the original theatrical cuts with no changes.
Ad Astra Per Ardua!
My blog - Expanding Frontier
Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site
Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine
Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine

AZ_GAMER's picture
AZ_GAMER
October 20, 2011 - 4:22pm
Some programers I know boycott blizzard because, according to the report given to me, bliz management fired the rank and file programmers after they made their contributions and then went on to make bank on the product. I don't have a boycott against bliz, mainly bc I am not a programmer, and I love their products. However, can empathize with why the programmers are upset and boycotting. For me its the whole SF locked in the vault that gets me hot! Several members of the community and one share holder asked politely about purchasing the rights, licensing, or even a fair "You can use it so long as you don't sell any derived products" statements. UUUGGGHHHH, raises my blood pressure just thinking about it. Heck, as a an artist I would license my IP to others if I wasnt using it and they maintained the spirit and integrity of the original work. Even Paramount is more willing to work with Star Trek fans then WTOC is about Star Frontiers. Shameful, Just Plain Shameful!

I agree that I dont want to see SF in a D20 system.

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
October 20, 2011 - 6:53pm
TerlObar wrote:
I have DVD's of the original trilogy.  They are each two disc sets, one disc has the "enhanced" version of the movie with all the changes Lucas had made to them up to that point.  The other disc in each set has the original theatrical cuts with no changes.

I thought I'd seen something like that on the market before, I just wasn't sure. Good to know, I'd like to see the originals in a slightly higher def format. Wink 
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Drammattex's picture
Drammattex
October 20, 2011 - 9:19pm
i remember they came out a few years ago, packaged with the new versions. From what I heard, Lucasfilm didn't put much work into them. Still... better than VHS. I'm still holding out for a high def version. On the one hand, Lucas says the new ones are his vision. On the other, I've never known him to pass up a marketing opportunity.

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
October 20, 2011 - 9:35pm
So are these originals remastered (as in touched up/cleaned up) or are they simply 35 year old grainy VHS tapes copied to DVD?

I have to ask as both versions were available on Laser Disc back in the 80s --- grainy/unrefined versions and the restored/clear-as-a-bell w/THX remastered sound versions at a higher price. Don't ask how, but I ended up with both versions.

Along with BetaMax and VHS copies to boot. I even have a super-8 copy of New Hope (although the projector was tossed yeasrs ago, I still have the film LOL).

Only the Holiday Special eludes me...which, oddly enough, has yet been released on DVD
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

jedion357's picture
jedion357
October 21, 2011 - 6:52am
LOL I remember the holiday special!
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!