Fly me to the Moon....

jedion357's picture
jedion357
September 12, 2011 - 5:33pm
Talking about the Moon
What there?

I have a great piece of artwork from Nasa of the "Tranquility Shores Industrial Park" and the sign in the picture lists Lunox Corp, EDC, He3 LTD, Lunnacomm Inc. Seems a waste to not use a good piece of art so there should be a Tranquility shores industrial park.

Moon Base Alpha- there are some nice pics and IIRC there is a quasi decent map of it somewhere so it seems a waste to not use the base as a city even if we dont recycle the name and I say just use the name anyway.

Pizza Hut has claimed that it will be the first fast food resturant on the moon. So? Why not.

I Assume that Virgin Galactic will be present on the moon and that we are actually talking about a time at least 50 years in the future of now so Virgin Galactic will be operating out of Port Branson.

This is just whats off the top of my head. but no doubt the Moon should be more cosmopolitan than Mars.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!
Comments:

jedion357's picture
jedion357
September 12, 2011 - 5:44pm
While its more probable to have a "train" system on Mars the low gravity and smaller size of the Moon makes flight a reasonable popular form of transporation. I'm thinking the eagle landers from Space 1999 which already made their debut in the SFman.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

jedion357's picture
jedion357
September 12, 2011 - 5:47pm
Need to look up the material in 2001 module and see what is mentioned there or just read 2001.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

thespiritcoyote's picture
thespiritcoyote
September 13, 2011 - 1:25am
How common is travel?
How cheep/costly?
With a scaled back KW as a guide, is that with stated atomic-tech just no jump-drives, or does it come with a similar reduction in capability for in-system travel?
Relativistic rocket-rules would be a big bonus here...

Along with everything mentioned several hotels and motel chains are ready for the moon as well, and all the big fast food franchises are not far behind Pizza Hut... Disney, Paramount, and well yeah... everybody is ready it's only going to take one to open the door and the rush will be on... even some off-shoot of the Family Kitchen will try to get up there just to make Mochi Treats and have mascots in Bunny Suits.

Space Adventures, Ltd is worth looking at as another established space-tourist company with a success, and several more are poised to make luxury-liners and private yachts a reality.

It largely depends on if, how, and where, the Space Settlement Institute or some other similar organization gets the key and becomes the gate-keeper... but thats still only covering the big names in the well known space-poised countries, and it might be a surprise when suddenly an monastery/resort from India opens under Transcendental Travels Unlimited, an Israeli Telecoms&Transportations Complex is constructed, or an Australian film-director opens the Lunacy Lights Studios, before Wal*mart, Disney, or even Pizza Hut has a chance to option a land grab in a yet-to-be found prime real-estate location and 'get off the ground'.

Can I Buy Land On The Moon?
The Man Who Sold the Moon Robert A. Heinlein
Space Properties for Sale!
Colonization of the Moon.
Oh humans!! Innocent We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".
~ anymoose, somewhere on the net...

so...
if you square a square it becomes a cube...
if you square a cube does it become an octoid?

jedion357's picture
jedion357
September 13, 2011 - 9:23am
Artimis as the twin of Apollo is the goddess of the hunt and represents the moon. Artimis should be a named location, along with Branson Base (operated by Virgin Galactic), Tranquility Shores Industrial Park. And the why not: "Base Alpha"

I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

thespiritcoyote's picture
thespiritcoyote
September 13, 2011 - 4:25pm
The Tycho Research Outpost seems to be a staple of sci-fi, being into everything from lasers and solar-power to cybernetics and stellar cartography... sometimes there is a colony attached, sometimes just a hydroponics facility to keep the crew self-fed... and the research is always top-secret if not the whole structure itself... it is almost the lunar equivalent of dreamland.

The Tranquility Memorial Base Museum and Research Outpost though rarely as on the edge of science as Tycho's research, it is nearly as diverse in research subjects and often just as far from the 'main tour-guide routes' as Tycho. Again sometimes there is an associated colony, sometimes the base stands alone without even a support-farm.

The Dark Side is usually entirely reserved for a combined Von-Neumann Telescope/Solar Power Collector/Supercollider project on a massive scale... it doesn't have to be completed... or even started... but it almost always reserved for the project such that any OTHER base is considered temporary if allowed at all... and the super project is given top priority in bureaucracy, whether funded or not...
  Consider the Dark Side of the Moon to be in a bureau-locked stale-mate preservation, reserved for an unnamed future project indefinitely, with scant and poorly funded and often unmanned observational outposts and geological survey stations.

The Artemis Project is a private venture to establish a permanent, self-supporting community on the Moon.

Plato Crater, Copernicus Station, Kepler Observatory, The Grimaldi Luner Survey and Com-Relay Colony, Cleomeades Hydroponics and Pharmaceuticals Agro-Dome, Langrenus Observatory and Comunications Relay Station, The Catharina Industrial Complex and Lunar Agro-Domes, Mount Pico, Acheron Station, Pegasus Station, Selene Station, Project Thor, Hercules Construction Facility and Atlas Mass Driver Complex, Clavius Outpost and Mass Driver... fill out the rest of what I have seen.

but for the main colony mass, it seems the major site for a metropolis on the moon is always in the Mare Nubium region... with the Alphonsus, Arzachel, and Albategnius Craters forming a Greater Tri-Colony Super Complex over time...

Other names of course run the gamut of Physicists and Astronomers, Sci-fi Writers and Directors, Actors Old and New, and the occasional 'who's that' scrambled names of unknown financial tycoons...

and while the previous list gives an indication of where the best scientific and literary minds of the last hundred years think we would, could, should go...
http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-01-future-lunar-sites.html
... there are lists of where the average person has voted on going.

Still looking for a more 'official' landing site resource... any such information is either in a state of; an uncompiled variety, undefined dynamic, or kept as 'industy secrets' by anyone making such plans. In general I don't get the impression anyone is sure where they want to land.
Oh humans!! Innocent We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".
~ anymoose, somewhere on the net...

so...
if you square a square it becomes a cube...
if you square a cube does it become an octoid?

TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
September 13, 2011 - 4:31pm
Please, Please, Please!  For the sake of my sanity. Foot in mouth  There is no "Dark Side of the Moon".  There is a far side that we can't see from Earth but it gets just as much sunlight as the side we can see.  It's not always dark.Smile
Ad Astra Per Ardua!
Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site
Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine
Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine

thespiritcoyote's picture
thespiritcoyote
September 13, 2011 - 6:21pm
Cool [**Flashes Poetic Licence**]Laughing

 Dark is used to describe anything that is occluded from the typical observation... like 'Dark Matter' which still reflects some form of solar energy in some unobserved spacial tangent...

 Plus there is an entire song about the Dark Side of the Moon... Would be a waste of awesome 1900's classical music NOT to spend a Lunar Sunrise blaring it from the far-point observatory with all those solar panels to crank the signal!!

[A bored tech at the lunar-farpoint station in 2124... still no alien signals being heard.... even with a microphone the size of half a moon... Money mouthUndecidedInnocent "COMEING TO YOU LIVE AND GALACTIC WIDE, HIJACKING FIFTY-THOUSAND TERAWATTS OF LUNAR POWER... REMINDING ALL YOU SENTIENTS AND SAPIANTS OUT THERE... EVERYTHING HAS A DARK SIDE, EVERYTHING HAS A LIGHT SIDE, BUT ALL SIDES ARE BRIGHTER WHEN OBSERVED AT THIER DAWNING MOMENT... ~~~ ... " ]
Oh humans!! Innocent We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".
~ anymoose, somewhere on the net...

so...
if you square a square it becomes a cube...
if you square a cube does it become an octoid?

jedion357's picture
jedion357
September 13, 2011 - 6:26pm
thespiritcoyote wrote:
.... if allowed at all... and the super project is given top priority in bureaucracy, whether funded or not...
  Consider the Dark Side of the Moon to be in a bureau-locked stale-mate preservation, reserved for an unnamed future project indefinitely, with scant and poorly funded and often unmanned observational outposts and geological survey stations.


With the treaty prohibitions on governments I dont see this as a possibility. And with the land rights claims of civil law being set up as the law for governing moon realistate anyone can just set up and claim a site by using it and occuppying it. Though I think that occupation will not be enforced for robotic minions but rather  for a human occupant. Imagine being paid to be the occupant at a site to vallidate the company's claim.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

thespiritcoyote's picture
thespiritcoyote
September 13, 2011 - 9:47pm
It works kinda like this, anything that gets put over there WILL be demolished when the Von-Neumann construction crew is released, and there is nothing to stop them from being released, and all the scientists and technicians know this... most of them WANT it... a few are willing to risk needing to run from the advancing horde of robots for their own experiments... but colonies of civilian-type populations just don't get built over there...
 I have seen this scenario repeated with and without 'sanction' it is a simple matter of when and not if the far-side will be over run with those massive solar-panels and super-telescopes, and they will all be automated with no room or need for any population-centers...

Lunar 'government' will belong to the scientists... they will be the ones that it is all for, and they will be the ones to establish 'rules and protocols'... so it will be a non-sovereign bureaucracy, might even end up a 'star-chamber' scenario, but still a form of lunar government will exist... Heinlein, Clarke, Asimov, even McCaffrey comes to mind, all showing how this happens under different structures, yet with the same effect.
Oh humans!! Innocent We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".
~ anymoose, somewhere on the net...

so...
if you square a square it becomes a cube...
if you square a cube does it become an octoid?

jedion357's picture
jedion357
September 14, 2011 - 4:34am
Sorry spiritC, I just don't see your scenario happening. NO ONE is going to release robots that are a danger to human life. And with the current situation in treaties any company or individual with the ability to will set up shop where he wants to take advantage of the land claims law. And no self imposed bureaucracy of scientists is going to stop them. In fact with industry and commercial interest driving the colonization of the moon the scientist will be in much the same position as the scientist in Avatar, dependent on the company's profits to pay for the science. Scientist running the show is a pipe dream that will never happen. And supposing the scientist tried to do what you suggest. Any one with a land claim will tell the to go suck vacuum and assert his claim in court. Even if he lost in court who's going to move him? A scientist bureaucracy? They're notorious pacifist. There is a lot of space there and companies will move in and pay for solar collectors but will occupy the spot to validate the land claim. And who's going to pay for super telescopes and super colliders? The government? Sorry that ain't happening. The US has decided against going back to the moon. And the rest of the world will take a dim view of another government trying to assert authority there so unless its the chinese sending troops to take it all over and say who can go where then its just not likely.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

thespiritcoyote's picture
thespiritcoyote
September 14, 2011 - 1:46pm
so then basically the moon devolves into a capitalist vs. idealist political arena... both sides have enough of the passive-force and hidden-support to play chess on the moon... and organized anarchy reigns as feudalism.

For example... several billion dollars are spent to build a far-side base with the intent to put non-critical people in a permanent colony... but the best skilled essential crews refuse offers and side with near-side non-agressive military contracts... now the corporation spent billions of dollars for a husk-colony, that will only be salvaged by the Japanese robotics designed crew... and the whole point of human life being in danger is moot...

the desire of the corporations do not outweigh the desire of the people, and only the science-supporting people have interest in permanent facilities... common people living on the moon and working at pizza-hut is a pipe dream... pizza-hut will only be valid in a near-side colony of significant population density... a colony that size will create it's own local economy and businesses before pizza-hut and wal*mart can move in...
Oh humans!! Innocent We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".
~ anymoose, somewhere on the net...

so...
if you square a square it becomes a cube...
if you square a cube does it become an octoid?

jedion357's picture
jedion357
September 14, 2011 - 3:37pm
I fail to see why the human population must or will live on the near side, "have eagle lander will travel", gravity is low and orbiting it should be fairly easy. Its not like its an insurmountable obstacle to go there. No one is going to just freak out because they cant see the Earth.

If its to be commerce and industry to drive the colonization of the moon and not governments then yes there will be quite a bit of anarchy so to speak. Even a little bit of wild west in space suits. Scientist are not automatically morally superior beings. and peeps motivated by money are not neccessarily moral beings. You have to expect things to be lively with the situation if the land claims rights are upheld and no government is allowed to assert soveringty. Eventually you will have to have regulation and either the UN will say its the body to step in or the citizens of the moon will rise up and assert their own soverignty after the situation gets bad.

And frankly this sort of model gives you a great setting to work with- all sorts of conflict angles and a emerging political entity on the moon that is not an extention of an earth based government.

Honestly I'm just not following your logic here.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

thespiritcoyote's picture
thespiritcoyote
September 14, 2011 - 5:05pm
It's the project that all of those same interested parties have considered optimal use of the lunar far-side, for coming close to about a century.
Oh humans!! Innocent We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".
~ anymoose, somewhere on the net...

so...
if you square a square it becomes a cube...
if you square a cube does it become an octoid?

jedion357's picture
jedion357
September 14, 2011 - 7:39pm
thespiritcoyote wrote:
It's the project that all of those same interested parties have considered optimal use of the lunar far-side, for coming close to about a century.


Just because interested parties agree that is the best use it doesn't follow that that is what will happen. Without the money being there to make it happen commercial interest wont sit idly by with their thumb up their fifth point of contact just because some scientist or university called first dibs. They'll go after the money and when land specualtion on the moon proves to be the next gold rush it wont be one or two of them doing it. So if the "dibbs" is to be honored someone with a gun is going to have to make them move. With America retreating from being a space power who? Who will have the assets, the money and the will to go move them off the far side. Just because some astronomer is whining about his telescope? its a big moon they can move the scope the cost of eviction is going to be way to high. To start with they can't simply ignore anyone telling them they have to move as possession is nine tenths of the law.

This is the sort of thing that could be the spark that sets off "national luna" movement when muscle gets applied a little to forcefully to move a popular wild cat miner and he becomes the "bloody Shirt" thats waved for the revolution because nothing motivates so well as a bloody shirt and a martyr.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

thespiritcoyote's picture
thespiritcoyote
September 15, 2011 - 12:35am

Who will have the assets, the money, and the will to go...
 when...
 all interested parties that agree on the best use, are being ignored...
 and the non-partisan independent individuals are in favor of an anarchy power base...
 and  "dibbs" is to be honored only by a threat that does not exist, and has no backing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_government

http://www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=13011

Oh humans!! Innocent We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".
~ anymoose, somewhere on the net...

so...
if you square a square it becomes a cube...
if you square a cube does it become an octoid?

jedion357's picture
jedion357
September 15, 2011 - 4:28am
I get the analogy of Antarctica bit there is one important difference. For one reason or another commercial interest are not banging down the door to exploit it. From some of the sites you've linked in these threads in would seem the best chance of true colonization on the moon would be the private sector. And under that theory land speculation cannot help but be come a thriving business. Once frequent and reliable transportation is available private sector activities could become a boom town. The situation would change so radically overnight that many people will be taken by surprise. Russia is a head of us in that they already subsidize their space program with paying customers. The capitalist will lead and governments will have to play catch up to get things under control.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

jedion357's picture
jedion357
September 15, 2011 - 4:45am
One of my qualms about this setting project even as I started it was that if it was a setting that mimicked cold war tensions with real world government running the show from various locations across the system would be a tired old rerun of stuff I've already done, played and seen- played the heck out of Orbit War from the Space Gamer magazine. A commercially colonized sol system becomes a horse of a different color and maintains the feel of SF with corporations behaving like corporations and governments in the mix. That is a far more interesting setting with great potential for conflict that will not logically end in WW3.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

thespiritcoyote's picture
thespiritcoyote
September 15, 2011 - 3:49pm
No one has backed out of space... plans have just been amended.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPhY0rJJcDo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOaZE0Dj9DQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gs4cRRMcuKs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq3AKiXZJ-M&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUhEigdFFyI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90TWpYkMj0I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N57UuzN_GL0&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-6GF_uVhA4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANcs042K_1w

For one reason or another, commercial interests [private interests] are not banging down the door to exploit [damage] it.

Understanding the Treaties, Agreements, and Plans of the Old Cold War Arena...
and the direction in which the Modern Political Arena is heading... and what this actually means to the space programs of humanity as a whole.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOmTs5HuwH0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnXCFvSBC0g&feature=related

The 'no-government' treaty being cited does not:
 limit new sovereignty to form, or the rights of self-government for colonies...
 restrict the researchers from the primary mission of exploration and the advancement of science...
 allow 'carte blanche' to anyone who wants to 'stake a claim' without registering an intent and gaining official charter with interested parties...
 
 The space treaties, agreements, and planning does:
 Protect the interests in space of humanity as a whole...
 Promote peaceful agreement and cooperation of fair and proper use...
 Reduce the rights of 'any' entity; sovereign, private, or individual, to extend 'aggressive threats' to civil custom, and peaceful cooperation.
Oh humans!! Innocent We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".
~ anymoose, somewhere on the net...

so...
if you square a square it becomes a cube...
if you square a cube does it become an octoid?

thespiritcoyote's picture
thespiritcoyote
September 15, 2011 - 4:51pm
My answers were inspired by the question 'Whats there?' and I started by thinking 'What are we planning on putting there?' as if the question was phrased from a future perspective.

What is actually there to exploit?
A low-gravity environment, a radio-free environment, water, a small amount of hostile space and He3...

 A low-gravity environment makes some industry exploitable if there is a population-base to support it.
 A low-gravity environment makes some research possibilities easier if there is a funding to support it, and enough population to maintain laboratory-facilities, at least in rotating shifts.
 A radio-free environment makes some research possibilities POSSIBLE that are possible no where else in reach, and only require start up costs, most operations can be automated. These will produce energy abundance as a side effect to off-set further costs by supporting a permanent colony with energy. Exploiting this resource requires a radio-silence, emissions-free zone, to be respected on the far-side, by all potential colonists.
 Water can go a long way to making a colony self-supporting and independent, and possibly provide excess as fuel to offset costs of missions further away.
 Space on the moon is more limited than a glance might suggest, habitats need to be able to rely on redundancey and cooperation with other habitat facilities in case of failures. Facilities for permanent colonization will benefit from being closely placed and densely populated, not scattered and lightly populated. Luna is more hostile than Antarctica, and requires more direct cooperation to sustain habitations on a colonial scale.
 He3 - Helium-3  is found on Earth in enough abundance to experiment with it, further testing will no doubt be a priority on Luna, and future arranged space-platforms... however, no use for this resource (most likely as fuel for rockets) is expected to precede the ability to mine it from other more abundant locations... and better sources of energy for stationary colonies are expected to be more beneficial as a whole before that time. Small amounts may be mined at first for testing, should larger amounts be required, larger amounts will find better locations elsewhere.
Oh humans!! Innocent We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".
~ anymoose, somewhere on the net...

so...
if you square a square it becomes a cube...
if you square a cube does it become an octoid?

Malcadon's picture
Malcadon
December 31, 2012 - 12:49am
I found a neat Moon Land Simulator while looking for apps, for my Google Earth program. Heads-up, its not easy!