 August 4, 2011 - 8:57pm | "5 year mission to seek out new life and new civilizations, boldly go yadda yadda yadda..." You know the speel. Few have compared Star Frontiers to Star Trek but I'm about to. To be fair it may have been just the writers tasked with writing modules but I suspect that it may have stemmed from a top down policy. Each "episode" (module) a new race or civilization is discovered and a few times its more than 1 in a module. Almost the Forhead of the week syndrome from Star Trek. Seems to me that they may have been realizing that their market was largely getting their sci-fi fix off of syndicated Star Trek in the early '80s aside from a brief stint by BSG and prior to that Space 1999; both of which showed a new race showing up here and there. Volturnus series- not once but 5 times! for 3 modules. Mission to Alcazar- 1 time Bugs in the System- 1 time Sun Down on Starmist- 1 time 6 modules and 8 first contacts! Wait wasn't that all the AD modules? Something similar in the Beyond the Frontier KH's modules- 2 new races I believe. You could make the case that the new race articles in Dragon is more the same But for sure the Layover At Lossend article with the Wypongs as primitive ape men on Lossend is more of the same. So this may have been TSRs recipe for an exciting module but do we need this today? Aside from decent write ups like in the Volturnus modules for the Ul-mor and Kurabanga reactions to the PCs, there was never any guidelines for first contact. what makes the grade for you today, what makes for an exciting adventure? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 August 5, 2011 - 12:40am | good point. I don't like the fore-head of the week analogy though. There is a lot about classic Trek and its sequels that was limited by the special effects technology of the time. While the "star fish" alien camp is very intriging, its important to remember that we base our entertainment on what we know. We haven't met any star fish aliens yet in real life so it must have been difficult to try to put the idea of alien worlds and civiliazations into terms that 1960's to 1980's american's could appreciate. Gene Rodddenbery was reknowned for his use of humanoid aliens in his television shows. I am a Star Trek fan but I also recognize its flaws. |
 August 5, 2011 - 1:30am | Personally I don't see the need for a "monster manual" in the game. What we needed was more animal intelligence grade beasties, but there are plenty of challenges to throw at a group beyond whipping up the new alien species du jour. |
 August 7, 2011 - 3:42pm | I recall reading that the game's designers wanted to emphasize exploration and discovery. This may be part of the reason for all the new intelligent alien races. Also SF is based on the classic Sci-Fi of the '50s and '60s and those science fiction stories had a tradition of using lots of intelligent alien species to make social commentary, as in Star Trek. I agree that the game could use more animal intelligence creatures. |
August 7, 2011 - 4:52pm | Also since the game was intended to be a western in space so you have to almost have the analog to the Indians with a primitive race to meet and make friends with or fight with; though the usual theme in SF is to get the primitives to help you. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
August 7, 2011 - 8:48pm | I can not say that I ever saw SF as a western in space. I never really saw anything that directly suggested that it was such. Maybe I missed something, but it really seemed to have its own very own theme going on. I have seen quite a few westerns in my time but I just can't seem to fit SF into that narrow of description. The frontier as vast and unsettled as it is, also has populated planets with large cities and an equal opportunity for metropolitan adventures. |
August 8, 2011 - 3:37am | Well the analogy only goes so far. But the star law ranger/marshal is patterned after the US marshal/Texas ranger. Mega corps are patterned after the robber barons and rail roads of the time particularly where the set up monopolies as specified in the rules. Clarion is like the town that outlaws carrying of weapons. Unsettled areas, primitive natives, dangerous marauding savages (sathar). Superficially its set up to mirror some nits of US history in the West. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
August 9, 2011 - 2:53am | Clarion is like the town that outlaws carrying of weapons. Tombstone? Not quite, the Earps would have permitted Streel in town. They'd just conk 'em over the head anytime one of them walked in with a gun.  |
 August 9, 2011 - 8:52am | Well, we certainly have a United Federation of Planets, with a Star Fleet, er, a United Planetary Federation with a Space Fleet. Aside from that, I see the Frontier as a lot more wild & woolly than Trek's Federation. Maybe it's just because we only ever saw the point of view of the USS Enterprise, one of the UFP's ships, but that Federation seemed more powerful and omnipresent in the lives of its citizens, without corporate presence here, there and everywhere. The Frontier seemed to me that the megacorps were more ubiquitous, and Spacefleet only had authority in deep space, and was relatively less powerful there. As a fan of the Star Fleet Universe variant (ADB's Star Fleet Battles, and its ilk), I could see a case for the Early Years Federation looking like the Frontier. That is, the stuff around the same time as the "Enterprise" TV show. As far as meeting new aliens, yes, I agree that was a major element in the modules written. One of these days, I intend to spin the "Beyond the Frontier" mods into a Trek campaign, likely in the aforementioned Early Years. |
August 9, 2011 - 6:24pm | There's also a strong 15th century Age of Exploration theme going on. The mega corps being like the East India Company and being their own mini governments with their own colonies; space pirates raiding the trade routes and often being sponsored by rival mega corps; jumping through the void is a lot like taking a sailing ship out into the ocean, you sometimes end up far from your intended destination and discover new lands; Militia fleets have royalty for officers while the dreggs of society provide the manpower. Not a perfect analogy but there seems to be some inspiration drawn from this. |
 August 9, 2011 - 8:22pm | While I understand your point in connecting ST episodes to SF modules, I can't help but think how any science fiction space adventure can have similarities to any other science fiction adventure. Every space adventure is sure to have at least 1 spaceship. ST has spaceships, SF has spaceships, SW has spaceships and so does that old movie classic Forbidden Planet. Advanced technology is another commonality. Aliens are yet another. One can find any number of ways to link up any two space-themed storylines IMO. My SF website izz: http://ragnarr.webs.com |
August 12, 2011 - 9:00pm | I agree with Cptn Rags. And in all fairness to ST, there is only so much you can do with a 1 hour network timeslot. I see writing RPG adventures as a bit more challenging since you are only writing one side of the story, there are no visual or sound effects to flesh out the story and the audience is actively participating instead of watching passively. I think a good module is one that provides a basic plot hook and background information for the referee to use as a foundation to build upon to create their own adventure tale. Players see through standard storylines and cliches very quickly. |
 August 29, 2011 - 2:41pm | ST takes a very low rung in apparent influence for me... I see many other more closely pattered examples in what has today become obscure footnotes, but at the time, would have been more readily available and obvious to the serious Sci-Fi researcher/Fan... Over-all, and in agreement with Cpt. Rags also, this is much the same analogy as that shown in what historical period/geographical location is most predominately displayed in the frontier setting... as again was brought up in some of the comments. To me the feel of SF and the apparent influence of the setting material, seems most strongly related to the sci-fi pre-ST/SW, and the many less well known TV Series than BSG... further while "Sci-Fi/Western" is one sub-category/crossover commonly seen in the examples I could provide, the literary Genre known as the Space Edisonade that slowly developed into a sort of "rocket-punk", along with the rise of the "cyberpunk movement" seems to play a more crucial key in the development of Star Frontiers. Only, however, this is as a "hind-sight" as few to none of these terms were even well established until the 80's & 90's, yet SF developed in the same "literary womb" as it were, and the separation of these genres was recognized, easily as far back as the 50's, possibly even the 30's, tho' without clear refinements or coined terms of reference. Also the term Mega-corp as far as it goes, 'is' a cyberpunk-stylized term, but as defined allows for, and in specific reference by definition, The East India Trading Company to be recognized as one of the earliest examples of a fully defined mega-corporation... specifically where it meets the earliest form of a Sovereign-Independent Pseudo-Power as one of the criteria. The Barons & Tycoons of 'any' frontier historical period are frequently lacking in some element to be "full mega-corporations", falling as "mere monopolies" by comparison... I would for SF purposes distinguish between Trans-stellar and System-Dependant Mega-corporations, and even distinguish those further from lesser monopolies... As such, the list of highest influence for me; Rocky Jones:Space Ranger, Captain Zero, Flash Gordon, Flight to Mars, Rocket X-M, Thunderbirds, Space Patrol, Solarnauts, Captain Scarlet, Buck Rogers, Ark II, Galaxy Rangers, First Men on the Moon, Robinson Crusoe of Mars, Lost in Space... While for hounorable mention; Captain Proton(of ST:V), Buzz Lightyear(The Animated Series), Silverhawks, Robotech, Earth II, John Carpenter of Mars, Hunter Prey is a short list that are easily seen as influenced by Star Frontiers, rather than the other way around, and SF's presence in the literary community (whether directly known or not), as modern adaptations of the same thematics. Neither those previous lists are complete, far from thorough or even exhaustive... In a secondary tier, I might place such references to War of the Worlds, and even Land of the Lost being easily made by the original authors of Star Frontiers... and retro-fits given to Firefly and Defying Gravity... as close-approximates-in-new-clothing for being influenced by the earlier genres that SF is founded on. ST, SW, BSG, and even Dr. Who are, all in a tertiary tier behind all of those, and do not seem to have a strong influence on, or adaptation plausibility, to anything Star Frontiers as I know it. Though anything even remotely Science Fiction is of course worthy of respect, and at least acknowledgment and/or parody, as adaptable and comparable in some way. Oh humans!!  We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
August 30, 2011 - 6:34am | While I would agree with everyone about genre material and influence; the connection between STar Trek and SF and even BSG, Space 1999, and others is in the construction of the plot. That at the time SF was being written the mass market Science fiction products had a heavy style of new race each week with a high proportion being primitive or backward. It suggests that since there is a strong representation of this in the modules that the module writers either consciously or subconsciously emmulated this. It almost suggest an expectation in the market, at that time, about what science fiction consumers expected. Why its important is because now we're 30 years latter and you can get your sci-fi fix and 52 flavors and that also includes your rpgs. The market has changed, matured and even fractured and I'm currious about both what we expect in adventure plots now from a Star Frontiers adventure and what we think about the cliche of a meeting a primitive species on every other planet. Is this cliche still tollerable or is it "enough already" ? When we're rethinking classic adventures to bring them to the table in our local pen and paper groups do we radically change them or just roll with the cliche? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 September 2, 2011 - 9:37am | I was thinking about the size of the frontier and the concentration
of intelligent life there. I think it is time to consider going 3d with
the frontier and not using the distances listed on the map as distances but as
travel times. This gives us the opportunity to correct the distribution of
stars to something more in line with reality (there are over 100 stars in a 20
ly radius from Sol). It also could help with the species question as well. 100 stars is more than enough room for 5-6 species original to the
area, and considering there are many out there manipulating genetics and some
that are not from frontier space we can make the concentration work logically. As for whether we need “a species a week” I think we have more than enough to go on with. Your right, we don’t need to discover more sapiens in order to have an exciting adventure. What happened to the ones we have discovered so far? Did we just leave the Heliopes on Starmist? Or have they started to sow up in other places on the frontier? Are they integrating well, or are there problems..prejudice from the core four? Reasonable men adapt to the world around them; unreasonable men make the world adapt to them. The world is changed by unreasonable men. Edwin Louis Cole |
September 2, 2011 - 11:40am | Intriguing idea about the map jacobsar. 3d is a game changer though. Will we maintain the rough shape of the network of stars or simply the travel time? Since a spiral arm in the Milky Way is 1000 LY thick I would assume it to be 1000 LY wide. I'd say place the Frontier on the outer edge of an arm to maintain the Great Expanse Feature. And artificially make Prengular on a plain slicing right through the center of the Milky Way. If we mapped a 100 LY cube on the edge of the galaxy's arm you' have anther 5 such cubes above and below the Frontier before you got to the top or bottom of the galaxy arm. I've loved my 2d Frontier map with beautiful nebulae on it that I printed and laminated. LOVE it alot but the reality of what reality would call for with a 3d map is staggering and suddenly makes the Frontier feel very very small. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
September 2, 2011 - 4:40pm | Maybe a game changer, but no need to throw out the laminated map. I see the map as the frontier seen from the top down. this alows us to move the "discovered stars" around in the Z axis without changing the basic shape of the frontier. Reasonable men adapt to the world around them; unreasonable men make the world adapt to them. The world is changed by unreasonable men. Edwin Louis Cole |
September 2, 2011 - 7:42pm | Like I said I love that map. So what? do a 3d map 100 LY across in the x and y axis and 10 or 20 LY deep in the z axis but do enough slices up and down the z axis to cover 100 LY in 3 directions? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
September 2, 2011 - 10:10pm | I agree with jacosar's point about using species already introduced and getting more into detailing them rather than the "species of the week" plots. Can you imagine if the Human race was encountered as "the species of the week" and then tossed aside after only one adventure? How much could the alien adventurers possibly learn about the Human race in just one encounter? There's plenty of storylines that can be explored per alien race that have already been introduced. As far as going 3D with the frontier, it's an interesting idea and certainly can only enhance the game. If a campaign lasted long enough, I suppose the flatness of the current frontier layout might risk becoming lame. Ultimately, where an adventure takes place is far more important than what the nearby star layout looks like. My SF website izz: http://ragnarr.webs.com |
September 3, 2011 - 8:48am | Do you really think we'd get some ass hats? I guess its possible if we're advertising everywhere that roll players frequent on the web. Have to ask w00t if he has the ability to eject someone from chat or the gameroom on this site. I wasn't in favor of using an off site virtual table top as they can be a pain and have a learning curve which can turn people off but that is a possibility and those things can be set up with a pass word to get into the game room. I'm just not so sure we'll have a problem, I've been to 3 miniatures conventions without seeing a problem. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
September 3, 2011 - 1:50pm |  I wasn't saying that you'd get ass hats in a possible 3D frontier map, or even suggesting that ass hats can somehow relate to Star Trek type of adventures. I was saying that you might get ass hats stumbling in at the planned Virtual Con m'friend. Y'know, the Virtual Con thread; where the Virtual Con related postings can be found? lolMy SF website izz: http://ragnarr.webs.com |
September 4, 2011 - 12:35pm | Ooops previous ass hats comment was a response to Captain Raggs in the Virtual con thread, my bad for trying to use my too smart for its own good phone to respond to post. I would edit the post except I cant, its like I'm logged in as someone else entirely and I cant edit my own posts. Yes I think the top down veiw of the classic Frontier map works if we say that this is the slice of the Frontier in a 3d scheme, naturally there will be some adjustments to go to 3d. But it is staggering to think that the Frontier only represents one out of ten such frontiers all stacked on top of each other in the galactic arm. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 September 5, 2011 - 6:35pm | I have tended to think of the frontier as on the edge of a spiral arm and the entire arm is the frontier. The map we have is just the first step into the frontier. Now the question of where the core four are migrating from has always fluctuate for me, either from across the expanse from the next spiral arm or from core-ward, or from a globular cluster near the arm. -iggy |
September 9, 2011 - 7:20pm | A Comparison: Crowded Cluster, Sparse Association Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
