 April 5, 2011 - 7:08pm | In short, I've fostered an idea for a long time of creating a SF fan site with playable (programed) campaigns and user-generated content. I asked WoTC for permission. They said "sorry, but no." ;-( Good to see at least one site has done something with this game. |
 April 6, 2011 - 6:32am | Not sure how they could say "no" if it's a fan site making $0.00 income. Look at all the 4e tools out there for free. :-) |
 April 6, 2011 - 7:08am | I was wondering of the details of that 'no' also.... on what grounds did they say no, and to what specificaly? Depending on who you talked to, you could have gotten a automated response.... which by default is 'no'.... Try calling them and asking someone if it is ok to copy a few images to advertise for a gaming group at your local community center.... hand-copied even? you will likely get the default answer, "sorry sir, but no. it is copywrited material and we have to provide royalty to the original artist commisioned for the work for any use we sanction as a corporation, therefore, we technically can not authorise you to use our product as anything but a shelf filler. Thank you for your support by purchasing your gamming needs from us, and I am really enjoying this hamburger." Oh humans!!  We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
April 6, 2011 - 9:30am | The response was from a "Brand Manager" and it was not automated. (I initially reached out to the "press contact" and my request was passed on from there). Basically I told them I was an original player of the discontinued game and wanted to create a fan site that would display some material from the old game, facilitate use of the old material for gaming and host user-generated fan fiction without profit. The response was a straight forward legal "permission denied". I had also sent a response through the "customer service" Q&A form and got "we can't comment on legal questions" and a warning about copyright infringement. w00t brings up a good point, but the fact is anything I put up would be both publication without permission as well as derivative use that aren't covered under "fair use" for commentary, criticism, parody, education, etc. ;-( |
April 6, 2011 - 1:35pm | yep... sounds about right, an automated human system... you would have gotten further if it had been real robots... the humans are programed to only respond in negatives. It usually requires an act of elected dictatorship to alter that in most cases, tho' occasionally the bored members will be compliant to complain on someones behalf, if they are impressed.... or just likely because they are bored. Did they at least thank you for the hamburger you bought them with your time? [~sic] I am being a bit sarcastic, my appologies if it is coming across as Dral', but i've been on both ends of the organization.... and I find it easier to take it in jests, none of it can be taken seriously when you have seen it in motion. But if one couldn't laugh at it, it would make one quite mad...  smiles the cheshire cat..... "can you stand on your head?" Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
 April 6, 2011 - 3:57pm | Solution: Support DWD Studios! Do everything you can from donating time to contributing money to the completion of Frontierspace. Then we all be a part of a real grass roots game system that believes that players ultimately should be able to enjoy what they play. Then firmly vote WOTC out of existence by never purchasing, supporting, or using anything associated with TSR, WOTC or Hasbro. |
April 6, 2011 - 4:00pm | I love SF and SFKH but I most definitely do not love what the parent company has done to gamers who are trying to revive a long out of publish game system. |
April 6, 2011 - 5:22pm | While I have considered that solution many times, I have already contributed so much to the enjoyment of FR and DS and SJ settings amongst others..... and technically this is still a repository of things used by H/WotC to fill out whatever Alternity/Future material they have scattered 'round the office. Havn't you ever wondered why ideas from these boards end up in products, just a little tweaked? Happens to me frequently, way I see it, they all owe up for some back royalties.....  Whole industry has been siphoning off my ideas for years. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
 April 6, 2011 - 7:58pm | Solution: Support DWD Studios! Do everything you can from donating time to contributing money to the completion of Frontierspace. Then we all be a part of a real grass roots game system that believes that players ultimately should be able to enjoy what they play. Then firmly vote WOTC out of existence by never purchasing, supporting, or using anything associated with TSR, WOTC or Hasbro. Amen, brother! That is precicely what I am doing myself......... Grendel T. Troll Registered Linux User #299419 "Nobody remembers what you say. A few might remember what you do, but EVERYONE remembers how you make them feel." ~ Anonymous |
April 7, 2011 - 4:21pm | There is nothing magical about TSR, Hasbro, or WOTC, everything they have done, though admittedly brilliant and inovative at its time, can be done equally well by others. D&D was incredible in the 80's but I will never own or buy anything associated with that brand bc of TSR and WOTC's business practices. I do hope they read our posts and understand how much of their reputation as a business has been destroyed by their in-abillity to act with fairness and allow their out of print products available for future generations to use and enjoy...either freely or under fair business licensing. Even Paramount has shown more generosity with a certain sci-fi franchise which has resulted in an entirly new revival for a new generation of fans. It is sickening |
April 6, 2011 - 11:17pm | well, they arn't all bad..... they just arn't all good either.... but... umm... YEA A!$!#!$! BATSICHES they peved me off too!!! I don't remeber why just yet, but I will, and I'll be FURIOUS!!! think it had something to do with monkey..... Oh yeah I remeber.... 4ed.... YEA A!$!#!$! BATSICHES, I AM FURIOUS!!! Aria, Birthright, Masterbook, Spelljammer, and Zebulon!!!!! I remeber how they pied me.. now.. it was a hole flight of monkeys! Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
 April 8, 2011 - 7:04am | Of course you can start your fan site, Animux. You just can't make any money off of it. Gizzards of the Toast is just trying to intimidate you because they want to put forward their own sci-fi schlock. You can even throw T-shirts around at a Con or write whole modules. You just can't SELL them - not even at cost. |
April 8, 2011 - 9:36am | From what I've read of U.S. copyright law that's not correct. In general: "Copyright in a work created on or after January 1, 1978, subsists from its creation and, except as provided by the following subsections, endures for a term consisting of the life of the author and 70 years after the author's death." and: "In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include — (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work."
1) The use would be non-profit but not educational 2) The copyrighted work is out of print 3) Although a complete book would not be re-published, portions of the original work would be displayed and derivative work based on the original would be published 4) The effect on the potential market would be, if they re-released the game free copies of some of it would be available on the internet.
It does not say "free distribution is fair use". In short, I need permission from the copyright owner. |
April 8, 2011 - 2:52pm | Strict adherence to that ( i can argue a legitimate counter for every point made, but i have no intention of getting embroiled in a legal debate.) would make all fan based materials, sites, conventions, and even (as i eluded to in a earlier post) the use of the product itself. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
April 8, 2011 - 3:31pm | No lawyer involved. (couldn't afford it anyway) I was just hoping to throw a little time and effort into something the old SF fanbase/community could legally enjoy online. I guess I'll just eat a burger instead. 8/ |
April 8, 2011 - 7:00pm | I was intending to suggest the burger was for the lawyer.... some work for bugers.... well, technically.... my argument is we all work for hamburgers, it's just a matter of simplifing the complexity of socio-ecconomic foundation of the human condition, for the purpose of comparing the quid-pro-quo. I'll trade my hamburger for your pizza... either way, whatever it is you were thinking was worth sharing, I see no applicable difference between providing inspired/derivitive fan-based material, or even direct conversational quoting of applicable topic to a discussion, whether it is on-line or in a cafe'. I would need to have this view explained by an expert, who, as I recall from my high-school history classes, would need to be suggesting that his wisom is superior to that of Thomas Jefferson, to take that argument. Indeed, I would be amused by anyone who takes an argument on a side of debate, that is in opposition to any of the founding fathers directly... these are allways the most comical. The constitution is unconstitutional on constitutional grounds.... and it can't be disproven, it can only be, discounted as valid, or accepted as irrelevant.... High-jacking.... many appologies to the OP for the long (simi-)OT.... Situation: A gamer heads into the local hobby-store, and finding a copy of a game he has been looking for purchases it takes it to the local cafe'. Sitting and siping on a drink he studies his new game to determine how he might use it with his local group, he starts making notes, coping stats for the adventure he is planning. A friend comes over and, seeing the new material, they start talking aloud about the parts of the game in detail, that compare to other material they are familiar with. During the conversation a diffrence of interpretation comes up, and to settle it, they begin making notes of mechanics, core to the game, to use as example for each other, where they think the flaws are. They settle the debate deciding, that it may need to be play-tested in both interpretations before either can be sure, so they design an adventure, between them both, including all the applicable mechanics and charts, in self contained modules, so thet it can be tested without looking up the rules, in the tome that is a little cumbersome for use at a table. The modules are, on inspection, nearly compleate examples of the full rules with only the fluff relevent to the adventure. Someone at a nearby table was listining, hard to miss it with the volume of their debate, and takes an opening to ask to join. She explains that she used to play, and would be willing to playtest with them. Smitten they both hand over what 'extra notes have accumulated on the table, so that she has something to take with her to study before the next game. The guy who made the purchase, needing to go to work, hands over the last of the relevent information to the other guy, who, will take lead on the first play-test, and leaves.... fast-forward a few months... An argument between the two guys, and tempers get out of hand, and the guy who made the origional purchase storms out with all his paid for material, but leaves all the other garbage behind on the table... The guy left behind, being somewhat OCD carfully sorts all of the collected notes... He effectivly has the whole system now.... the player they were sharing shows up, she has a new boyfriend and she brought him with her, the guy who just lost a long standing friend looks very distraught, and decides he might need to reconsider his hobby compleatly. In a moment of distraught and disturbed weakness, he accepts an offer from the boyfriend for all the collected notes, so she doesn't have to loose the campaign she has been enjoying... and excusing himself moves to the door.... he looks back once, shakes his head sardonicly.... 'figures' he thinks to himeself....----- So, what happened here? what might the judges say they did wrong? was there any law that was overlooked?Disclaimer: Ignore, discuss, enjoy, laugh, delete, request a move to it's own topic..... whatever is deemed appropriate... but please, respect the entertainment inteded ... and don't take it too seriously... Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
April 8, 2011 - 7:38pm | LEGAL Disclaimer: I am not a laywer, I am not a legal expert, I am do not pretend to be either. The following opinions are expressed as opinions and should no way be interpreted as legal advise or interpretation of law. For inspirational and entertaiment pruproses only. Names should be changed to protect the innocent. Ideas are not intended to represent any real persons living, dead, or owned as intellectual property. Supplies of opinions limited while quantities last, dont try this at home, limited time offer, limit one suggestion per customer and void where prohibbited by law. No hamburgers were injured in the making of this opinion. |
April 8, 2011 - 7:07pm | oh btw, im not against capitalism, im just for fairness. Sure let everyone have the right to earn their "hamburger" but lets not give everyone the recipe for the hamburger and then cry foul when others cook up their own burgers. Be fair, license products fairly at fair prices, when IP's no longer serve to profit a company consider selling the material to interested parties in part or in whole to allow for others to contribute. It is so ridiculous that a company like WTF'0TC who still makes plenty of hamburgers on its existing products makes such a hard case about a 25 year old out of print retired game that makes no one any money. |
April 8, 2011 - 7:11pm | Well said! glad you had the guts to say it.... I admit to balking at directly making unsolicited legal advisments.... something about ending up being 'responsible' for bad advice that gets taken. or good advise that gets taken 'badly'... so I tend to just rely on making jokes about the whole fiasco, and it's ludicrosity, and get on with the pursuit of happiness... Nothing I said seemed to be coming across as encouraging, helpful..... (or funny ), however... Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
April 8, 2011 - 8:38pm | I hard in my belief of the unalienable pursuit of free hamburgers... but I am filled with the sensibility and awareness that it will take incredible feats conducted in the area of material logistics, to atain such utopia.... most likely to be paid for in the exponentially increasing value of the hamburger.... far more valuable than standardized gold, or transitioning electrons. The pursuit of free hamburgers... that jus' ain't cheep. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
April 22, 2011 - 8:38am | Thanks for the comments everyone. I think I'm just going to go forward with the idea using 100% original content instead of the old SF stuff just for the experience of putting it together. I can't predict how well it wil turn out without a strong base of material and fans but I'm sure one more random website won't harm the internet.... (with the possible exceptions of U.S. politics and Bieber) When I have something presentable I'll link it here. ;-o |
 April 22, 2011 - 4:43pm | Solution: Support DWD Studios! Do everything you can from donating time to contributing money to the completion of Frontierspace. Then we all be a part of a real grass roots game system that believes that players ultimately should be able to enjoy what they play. Then firmly vote WOTC out of existence by never purchasing, supporting, or using anything associated with TSR, WOTC or Hasbro. Meh, close enough. DP9 has pretty much been getting my support. I haven't bought anything from TSR since SF. Why would I want to change that record? In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
