Ship Titles

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
December 31, 2010 - 12:12pm
Since I have a nutty need to get details in my game, for Knight Hawks I have several of the abbreviated titles used in the game plus some of my own. Would love to hear some of the ones other people use.

Also a discussion of how and why such titles are used and who gets to use them would work too.

UPFS---United Planetary Federation Ship
SAV---Sathar Attack Vessel
CMS---Clarion Marine Ship
ZMV---Zuraqqor Military Vessel
MLS---Mhemne Liberty Ship
DRIRM---Democratic Republic of Inner Reach Militia
MS---Malthar Ship
PGSS---Pan Galactic Star Ship
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?
Comments:

Will the Stampede's picture
Will the Stampede
December 31, 2010 - 12:17pm
To that, we can add:

SoF or SF—Ship of the Flight

CFMS—Cappellan Free Merchant Ship

SCS—Streel Corporation Ship

CDCS—Cassidine Development Corporation Ship
" 'Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death."

jedion357's picture
jedion357
December 31, 2010 - 8:27pm
So what system sells Flags of Convenience for merchant vessels?
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Anonymous's picture
w00t (not verified)
December 31, 2010 - 9:05pm
I don't use titles but this sounds like a great submission.
Here's a suggestion;

PGCs Pan-Galactic Corporation ship
UPFs  United Planetary Federation ship
MPs Malthar Pirate ship *
Ms Malthar ship
FTAs Frontier Trade Administration ship 
UPSs UPF Postal Service ship (or FPSs Frontier Postal Service) 
PSAs Planetary Survey Administration ship

*I differentiate the Malthar's ships from the pirate ships - you might have picked that up in my Villainous NPC article. 

jedion357's picture
jedion357
January 1, 2011 - 3:29am
Anything built under the authority of the UPF will actually carry UPFS on it whatever the civil service org the the vessel is an asset of- Most private organization will not be able to "flag" a vessel but corporations that own a planet will.

I cant see the Royal marines being all "Uh-Ra" over Clarion Militia Ship but to keep continuity with the published material I veiw the "militia" designation as stemming from clauses in the signed UPF treaty that deals with military concerns and allows militia ships to be activated for Frontier wide defense in time of war. Militia's are defined as system defense forces in UPF law and legally they are all called militias and carry Militia Ship on their hull.

so on a system by system or planet by planet basis I expect governments to issue Flags. Despite the CMS designation I would expect merchant ships that get a flag from the Crown of Clarion would likely carry something like HMS, His Majesty's Ship

Dramune system is a problem; The Malthar is not a government per se though he has control of a space station and he really represents a criminal organization. IIRC from the module the control of the planet is in the hands of a rival to the Malthar. I could see both offering flags for a price and little questions asked but I'd expect the Malthar to do something like Dramune System Ship just to be a pisser to Inner Reach, The planet based government of Outer Reach will have another designation too as well as the govenment of Inner Reach -I like Rattravellers DRIRMS (everyone refers to them as "the drims") but regular merchant men could have DRIRS.

I think I would make it that the UPF charter only allows "worlds" to offer flags to vessels and defines world as planets that meat certain qualifications (population size, signatory of the UPF charter, etc) which would make the malthar's flags illegal being issued by the governement of a space station but the Malthar doesn't care and those ships with his DSS dont care cause they're pirates and use it to scare victims, be funny or occassionally try to assert that its a legit ship (a system without militia would not be able to do much when a pirate shows up asserting a Malthar issued set of papers and flag, despite knowing they're patently illegal, they'll have to pretend that they are even while firing off a sub space message to Space Fleet (After all Pirate need to pull into port from time to time)
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
January 1, 2011 - 4:51am

Designations from my campaign:

PGCS = Pan Galactic Corporation Ship
SCS = Streel Corporation Ship
CMV =Capellan Merchant Vessel
CCS = Cassidine Corporate Ship
FCS = Federation Courier Ship (the pony express in my game)

SLS = Star Law Ship
MSV = Mercenary Starbase Vessel (Volturnus based patrolling fleet sanctioned by Star Law and funded by PGC)
SDAS = Sovereign Domain Authority Ship (the dictatorship that overtakes the Frontier in my game)
FLS = Frontier Liberation Ship (former UPF loyalists plotting to retake the Frontier from SDA)

TSEV = Truane's Star Exploration Vessel (i.e. the original Volturnus adventure, Serena Dawn etc)
SDS = Star Devil Ship*

PMV = Palean Militia Vessel
MES = Minotaur Enforcer Ship
HMS = Histran Militia Ship
HPV = Hargut Patrol Vessel
HMC = Hentz Militia Craft
KPS = Ken'zah-Kit Patrol Ship
ZMS = Zik-kit Milita Ship
ORV = Outer Reach Vessel (aka Malthar until the war is over, then the OR government reinstates their own militia with the same designation)
IRS = Inner Reach Ship
TPC = Terledrom Patrol Craft

* Never officially recognized in the Frontier

I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

dmoffett's picture
dmoffett
January 1, 2011 - 1:27pm
OK, Here is how it works in the real world.

A flagged ship does not need to have a prefix. Some have a Prefix because they are under contract.
Most Civilian Ship prefixes either state it's propulsion type or its Purpose The Imperial Japanese Navy never used Prefixes, its only English speaking people who would Put one on them in thier own writings Ususally I J N or HIMS(His Imperial Majesty's Ship) . The Imperial German High Seas Fleet never used Prefixes But Durring the the Third Reich the German Navy or "Kriegsmarine" Did not use them either.
As we all Know USS Stands for United States Ship, and is reserved for the US Navy only. USNS is United States Naval Ship and is used for Ships with civilians as part of it's crew such as the USNS Comfort, A hospitol Ship.
  HMS His/Her Majesty's Ship used by many different countries Such as The United Kingdom and also Norway. RMS Stands for Royal Mail Steamer, and RMMS Royal Mail Motor Ship designating that ship as contracted to carry Mail for the British Empire. Notice that a Steamship was RMS and and a Diesel powered Vessel was RMMS. SS stands Simply for Steam Ship. When A steamer was not under mail contract it's Prefix would revert to SS.
  Some Ships Use company Name Prefixes, Such as the Exxon Valdez. Problem with that would be if the Gullwind were owned by PGC it would be the Pan-Galactic Gullwind.... What a mouthful. But there is a System in Place For Civilian Prefixes Here it is, It is not Arbitrary or mandatory for it to be used.

Here is a List of Common Civilian Prefixes
AHT Anchor Handling Tug
AHTS Anchor Handling Tug Supply vessel
CRV Coastal Research Vessel
C/F Car Ferry
CS Cable Ship
DB Derrick Barge
DLB Derrick Lay Barge
DCV Deepwater Construction Vessel
DSV Diving Support Vessel/ Deep Submergence Vehicle
DV Dead vessel[1]
ERRV Emergency Response Rescue Vessel[citation needed]
FPSO Floating Production, Storage and Offloading Vessel
FPV Free Piston Vessel
FPV Fishery Patrol Vessel
FV Fishing Vessel
GTS Gas Turbine Ship
HLV Heavy lift vessel
HMHS His/Her Majesty's Hospital Ship
HMY His/Her Majesty's Yacht
HSC High Speed Craft
HTV Heavy Transport Vessel
LB Liftboat
LNG/C Liquefied natural gas carrier
LPG/C Liquefied petroleum gas carrier
MF Motor Ferry
MS (M/S) Motor Ship (interchangeable[citation needed] with MV)
MSY Motor Sailing Yacht
MT Motor Tanker
MV (M/V) Motor Vessel (interchangeable[citation needed] with MS (also refers to Azipod vessels)
MY Motor Yacht
nb Narrowboat
NRV NATO Research Vessel
NS Nuclear Ship
OSV Offshore Support Vessel
PS Paddle Steamer
PSV Platform Supply Vessel
RV Research Vessel
RMS Royal Mail Ship or Royal Mail Steamer
SB Sailing Barge
SS (S/S) Steamship
SSCV Semi-Submersible Crane Vessel
SSV Sailing School Vessel, Submarine and Special Warfare Support Vessel[2]
ST Steam Tug
STS Sail Training Ship
STV Sail Training Vessel or Steam Turbine Vessel
SV Sailing Vessel
SY Sailing Yacht or Steam Yacht
TEV Turbine Electric Vessel
TIV Turbine Installation Vessel
TS Turbine Steamer
TSS Turbine Steam Ship or Twin Screw Steamer
TV Training vessel

We could easily adapt Something Like
IDV for Ion Drive Vessel or ADS or ADV for Atomic Drive Ship or Vessel. SS for System Ship

NOw here is a list of some of the Military Prefixes from around the world:

Country Service Prefix Meaning
 Argentina Argentine Navy ARA Navy of the Argentine Republic (Spanish: Armada de la Republica Argentina)
 Australia Royal Australian Navy HMAS His/Her Majesty's Australian Ship
 Australia (Victoria) Royal Navy HMVS His/Her Majesty's Victorian Ship (obsolete)
 Austria-Hungary Austro-Hungarian Navy SMS Seiner Majestät Schiff (English: His Majesty's Ship)
 Bahamas Royal Bahamas Defence Force HMBS His/Her Majesty's Bahamian Ship
 Bangladesh Bangladesh Navy BNS Bangladesh Naval Ship
 Barbados Barbados Defence Force HMBS His/Her Majesty's Barbadian Ship
 Belgium Belgian Navy BNS Belgium Naval Ship (NATO prefix)
 Brunei Royal Brunei Navy KDB Kapal Di-Raja Brunei — Royal Brunei Ship
 Burma Burmese Navy UBS Bamar Sit Yay Yin — Union of Burma Ship
 Canada Canadian Forces Maritime
Command (MARCOM)
HMCS/NCSM His/Her Majesty's Canadian Ship/Navire Canadien de Sa Majesté (French)
CFAV/NAFC Canadian Forces Auxiliary Vessel/Navire auxiliaire des Forces canadiennes (French)
Canadian Coast Guard CCGS/NGCC Canadian Coast Guard Ship/Navire de Garde côtière canadienne (French)
CCGC/CGCC Canadian Coast Guard Cutter/Cotre de Garde côtière canadienne (French)
Departmant of Fisheries and Oceans CGS Canadian Government Ship (no longer used)
DGS Dominion Government Ship (no longer used)
Navire école des cadets de la Marine SCTS/NECM Royal Canadian Sea Cadets/Cadets de la Marine royale du Canada (French)
 Colombia Armada Nacional ARC Armada de la Republica de Colombia
 Confederate States of America Confederate States Navy CSS Confederate States Ship (obsolete)
 Cook Islands Cook Islands Police CIPPB Cook Islands Police Patrol Boat
 Denmark Royal Danish Navy HDMS (Danish: KDM) His/Her Danish Majesty's Ship (Danish: Kongelige Danske Marine)
 Ecuador Armada Ecuatoriana BAE Buque de la Armada de Ecuador
 Estonia Estonian Navy ENS (Estonian: EML) Estonian Naval Ship (NATO designation)
Estonian Coast Guard ECGS Estonian Coast Guard Ship (NATO designation)
 Fiji Republic of Fiji Navy RFNS Republic of Fiji Naval Ship
 Finland Finnish Navy FNS Finnish Navy Ship. Prefixes are not used in Finnish-language communications.
 France French Navy FS French Ship (NATO designation); France does not use prefixes internally
 German Empire Kaiserliche Marine SM U## Seiner Majestät Unterseeboot (English: His Majesty's Submarine)
SMS Seiner Majestät Schiff (English: His Majesty's Ship)
 Nazi Germany Kriegsmarine (no prefix; some authors use "DKM" for "Deutsche Kriegsmarine" and "KMS" for "Kriegsmarine Schiffe")
 West Germany Bundesmarine FGS Federal German Ship (NATO designation); West Germany did not use prefixes internally
 Germany (reunited) Deutsche Marine FGS Federal German Ship (NATO designation); Germany does not use prefixes internally
 Kingdom of Greece Royal Hellenic Navy ?? (VP) ????????? ?????? (Vassilikón Ploíon), "Royal Ship"; RHS (Royal Hellenic Ship) or HHMS (His Hellenic Majesty's Ship) in use by English-language authors and contemporary foreign navies.
 Greece Hellenic Navy HS Hellenic Ship: NATO designation, used in international communications; internally the Hellenic Navy uses prefixes indicating ship type.
 Guyana Guyanese Coast Guard[3] GDFS Guyanese Defence Forces Ship
 Iceland Icelandic Coast Guard ICGV (Icelandic: VS) Icelandic Coast Guard Vessel, (Icelandic:Varðskip)
 India Indian Navy (pre-Republic) HMIS His/Her Majesty's Indian Ship
 India Indian Coast Guard ICGS Indian Coast Guard Ship
Indian Navy INS Indian Naval Ship
 Indonesia Indonesian Navy KRI Kapal Republik Indonesia (Republic of Indonesia Ship)
 Ireland Irish Naval Service Long Éireannach — Irish ship
 Israel Israeli Sea Corps INS Israeli Naval Ship (Internally Hebrew acronym ??"? (A.Ch.Y.) is used standing for ????? ??? ??? (Oniyat Heyl HaYam - Sea Corps Ship)
 Kingdom of Italy
(until 1946)
Regia Marina RN Regia Nave -- Royal Ship, sometimes unofficially "RM", standing for "Regia Marina"
Regia Marina R.Smg. Regio Sommergibile -- Royal Submarine
 Italy Marina Militare ITS Italian Ship (NATO designation); Italy no longer uses prefixes
 Jamaica Jamaica Defence Force HMJS His/Her Majesty's Jamaican Ship
 Empire of Japan Imperial Japanese Navy (no prefix; some authors use "HIJMS" for "His Imperial Japanese Majesty's Ship" and "IJN" for "Imperial Japanese Navy")
 Japan Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force JDS or JS Japanese Defense Ship or Japanese Ship
 Kenya Kenyan Navy KNS Kenyan Naval Ship
 Kiribati Kiribati Police Force RKS Republic of Kiribati Ship
 South Korea Republic of Korea Navy ROKS Republic of Korea Ship
 Latvia Latvian Navy LVNS Latvian Naval Ship (NATO designation)
 Lithuania Lithuanian Navy LKL

LNS

Lietuvos Karinis Laivas -- Lithuanian Military Ship

Lithuanian Ship (NATO designation)

 Malaysia Royal Malaysian Navy KD Kapal Di-Raja — His Majesty's Ship, literal: Royal Ship
 Marshall Islands Marshall Islands Police RMIS Republic of the Marshall Islands Ship
 Federated States of Micronesia FSM National Police FSS Federated States Ship
 Mexico Armada de México ARM Armada de la República Mexicana
 Myanmar Tatmadaw Yay UMS Myanma Sit Yay Yin — Union of Myanmar Ship
 Netherlands Royal Netherlands Navy Hr.Ms./Zr.Ms. (English: HNLMS) Harer/Zijner Majesteits (English: His/Her Netherlands Majesty's Ship)
 New Zealand Royal New Zealand Navy HMNZS His/Her Majesty's New Zealand Ship
 Nigeria Nigerian Navy NNS Nigerian Naval Ship
 Norway Royal Norwegian Navy HNoMS (Norwegian: KNM) His Norwegian Majesty's Ship (Norwegian: Kongelige Norske Marine)
Norwegian Coast Guard NoCGV (Norwegian: KV) Norwegian Coast Guard Vessel (Norwegian: Kystvakten)
 Oman Royal Navy of Oman SNV Sultanate Naval Vessel
 Pakistan Pakistan Navy PNS Pakistani Naval Ship
 Palau Palau Police PSS Palau State Ship
 Papua New Guinea Papua New Guinea Defence Force HMPNGDFS His/Her Majesty's Papua New Guinea Defence Force Ship
 Peru Peruvian Navy BAP Peruvian Navy Ship (Spanish: Buque Armada Peruana)
BIC Scientific Research Ship (Spanish: Buque de Investigación Científica)
 Philippines Philippine Navy BRP Barko ng Republika ng Pilipinas; in use since 1 July 1980
(Ship of the Republic of the Philippines)
RPS Republic of the Philippines Ship (Obsolete); before 1 July 1980
 Poland Polish Navy ORP Ship of the Republic of Poland
(Polish: Okr?t Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej)
 Portugal Marinha Portuguesa NRP Navio da República Portuguesa - Portuguese Republic Ship
PNS Portuguese Navy Ship (NATO designation, not used internally)
UAM Unidade Auxiliar da Marinha - Navy Auxiliary Unit (used by the Portuguese Navy non-military ships)
 Romania Romanian Navy NMS Nava Majestatii Sale (His/Her majesty's Ship) - used before 1945 by the Royal Romanian Navy
SMR Serviciul Maritim Roman (The Romanian Sea Service) - used by transport ships
ROS Romanian Ship (NATO designation, not used internally)
 Russia Russian Navy RFS[citation needed] Russian Federation Ship; Russia does not use prefixes internally
 Saudi Arabia Saudi Navy HMS His Majesty's Ship — the same as the Royal Navy
 Singapore Republic of Singapore Navy RSS Republic of Singapore Ship
 Solomon Islands Royal Solomon Islands Police RSIPV Royal Solomon Islands Police Vessel
 South Africa South African Navy SAS South African Ship (previously HMSAS - His/Her Majesty's South African Ship)
SATS South African Training Ship
 Spain Armada Española SPS Spanish Naval Ship (Spain does not use prefixes internally)
 Sri Lanka Sri Lankan Navy SLNS Sri Lanka Naval Ship
 Sweden Swedish Navy HMS Hans/Hennes majestäts skepp — the same as the Royal Navy but in Swedish
 Republic of China Republic of China Navy ROCS (older usage: CNS) Republic of China Ship (older usage: Chinese Navy Ship)
 Thailand Royal Thai Navy HTMS His Thai Majesty's Ship
 Tonga Tonga Defence Services VOEA Vaka O Ene Afio (His Majesty’s Vessel)
 Turkey Turkish Navy TCG Ship of the Turkish Republic (Turkish: Türkiye Cumhuriyeti Gemisi.)
 Tuvalu Tuvalu Police Force HMTSS His/Her Majesty's Tuvaluan State Ship
 Trinidad and Tobago Trinidad and Tobago Defence Force TTS Trinidad and Tobago Ship
 United Kingdom Ships carrying mail RMS Royal Mail Steamer/Ship
Fishery protection vessels FPV Fisheries Protection Vessel
Royal Air Force HMAFV His/Her Majesty's Air Force Vessel (not currently in use)
Royal Fleet Auxiliary ships RFA Royal Fleet Auxiliary
Royal Maritime Auxiliary
Service
ships
RMAS Royal Maritime Auxiliary Service (now obsolete)
Serco Denholm ships SD Vessels previously operated under RMAS prefix that are now operated under contract by Serco Denholm
Royal Navy HM Sloop His/Her Majesty's Sloop (now obsolete)
HMS His/Her Majesty's Ship/Submarine
HMSm His/Her Majesty's Submarine
HMT Hired Military Transport (not currently in use)
HMAV His/Her Majesty's Armed Vessel[4] (not contemporaneously used)
HMY His/Her Majesty's Yacht (not currently in use)
HMMGB His/Her Majesty's Motor Gun Boat (not currently in use)
HMM His/Her Majesty's Monitor (not currently in use)
HMSML His/Her Majesty's Small Motor Launch
HBMS His/Her Britannic Majesty's Ship (archaic)
HM His/Her Majesty's, then used with the type of ship in military use (e.g. "HM Trawler")
Hospital ships HMHS His/Her Majesty's Hospital Ship
Joint Services HMSTC His/Her Majesty's Sail Training Craft
Trinity House THV Trinity House Vessel (Lighthouse and Buoy Tender)
Northern Lighthouse Board NLV Northern Lighthouse Vessel (Lighthouse tender)
British Army HMAV Her Majesty's Army Vessel[5]
RCLV Royal Corps of Logistics Vessel (not currently in use)
Government research ships RRS Royal Research Ship
HM Revenue and Customs HMCC His/Her Majesty's Customs Cutter
HM Customs and Excise (replaced by HMRC, above) HMRC His/Her Majesty's Revenue Cutter (not used since 18 April 2005)
 United States U.S. Air Force USAF, USAFS United States Air Force ship (not currently in use)
U.S. Army USAS United States Army Ship
USAV United States Army Vessel
USAT United States Army Transport (not currently in use)
USAHS United States Army Hospital Ship (not currently in use)
U.S. Navy USF United States Frigate (obsolete)
USFS United States Flagship (obsolete)
USS United States Ship
U.S. Navy Military Sealift Command USNS United States Naval Ship (USN owned, civilian crews)
USNV United States Naval Vessel (foreign-built, USN-leased, USN crews)[6]
United States Coast Guard USCGC United States Coast Guard Cutter
USCGD United States Coast Guard Destroyer (not currently in use)
United States Lighthouse Service USLHT United States Lighthouse Tender (obsolete)
United States Revenue Cutter Service USRC United States Revenue Cutter (obsolete)
National Oceanic and Atmosphere Administration NOAAS NOAA Research Vessel
 Uruguay Uruguayan Navy ROU Republica Oriental del Uruguay
 Vanuatu Vanuatu Police Force RVS Republic of Vanuatu Ship
 Venezuela Venezuelan Navy FNV Fuerzas Navales de Venezuela Not in use since 1949
ARV Armada Republica de Venezuela Not in use 1999
ARBV Armada Republica Bolivariana de Venezuela
The bombing starts in five minutes.

iggy's picture
iggy
January 1, 2011 - 1:22pm
I like the use of the words vessel and craft in place of ship.  It mixes things up and gives a more individualized feel to the frontier.  Not all races would have developed the same designation system for their ships.  Another that could be used is transport.

I have used FMS to mean free merchant ship in my games.  I have leaned towards Jedion's system of worlds (governments) being the only organizations who may legally grant flags.
-iggy

AZ_GAMER's picture
AZ_GAMER
January 1, 2011 - 2:38pm
To give ships a singular unique name, as in the example of the Japanese navy, i.e. "The Yamato" gives a very personal feel to each of the vessels. Now I tend to use standard prefixes such as S.S. (Star-Ship) Or UPFS, SAV, RMS, etc. out of habit. However, I am all for making each ship as unique with as much personal (player) vested ownership as possible. This mindset of course has to be adjusted accordingly for larger space fleet battles. I have to admit though that I have grown tired to sci-fi universes with the seemingly endless supply of capital ships and starships zipping about known space such as found in the later Star Trek televisions series. I may not always feel this way about it, however for the time being I am definitely loving the scaled back smaller fleets like those proposed in SFKH (or possibly slighty larger). The primary reason being is that a starship isnt a motor boat, it represents a huge financial and resource investment of the government or private enterprise that operates it. Now, a wealthy government may field a lot of smaller warships but when it comes to the big dogs such as cruisers, carriers, battleships, etc. the numbers should be relatively small. When I consider the new BSG Battlestar fleet of around 120 battlestars prior to the Cylon attack it seems like a lot of capital ships but it is also important remember this actually broke down to around 10battlestars per colonized system (12 colonies) which isnt so bad. Also consider the fact that they didnt have a lot of diversity in ship design (All most all of their warships were capital ships). Sorry I digress. Anyway, When you see the massive ship confabs such as in Star Wars and the later Star Trek series it begins to beg the question of just how much money/resources can these planets produce? The loss of a starship, whether military, commercial, or private, should feel like a huge deal like the loss of a jetliner or the Titanic, it should be felt as a huge economic, strategic, and personal loss to the entity operating the ship. The idea of, oh we lost two assault scouts on the rim this month form Pirate activity should not be a trival matter. The government may even errect memorials for lost crews or give some kind of celebration for returning heroes.

Malcadon's picture
Malcadon
January 1, 2011 - 8:16pm
I like to provide coding by: fleet; role; ship class and model number/letter (if any; a letter would be in lowercase) - followed by the ship's name. So the CVFRBL1 Lady Yandar means a Mark I Belmont Class Freighter (mark I Belmonts would be a basic configuration) named after the civilian owner's former Yazarian girlfriend.

Basically: Civilian-Vassal-FReighter-BeLmont-mark-1 "Lady Yandar".

Unfortunately, the game dose no provide different classes of ships (beyond the Privateer and Yacht type ships) - instead, they lump them by role (Assault Scouts, Frigates, and such). This is unfortunate, as even in the basic KH rulebook, you'll find different configurations for the same types of ships, and maybe some slight variations in the modules.

dmoffett's picture
dmoffett
January 1, 2011 - 9:47pm
Proposal:

As to Granting Flags.... For civilian ships It should be the Flag of the government that the underwriting insurance company works under. In Other words If you buy Insurance through An Agent from Kizt-Kar, then the flag of the ship will be from there. If Later you Switch Insurance agents to an Underwriter from Clarion in the White Light System your Flag would change to that System and Planet.

This refers to the Insurance on the Vessel not it's Cargo.
The bombing starts in five minutes.

jedion357's picture
jedion357
January 2, 2011 - 7:28am
I like the real world practice of Flags of Conveneince which will allow a ship owner to essentially register a ship and fly the flag of a nation (planet) that he is not a citizen of in order to reduce operation cost or avoid regulations of the owners country.

For example I would veiw Clarion, which already has strict laws concerning gun control and an largish militia as being fairly proactive about regulating shipping, and other nations with a large militia force may also regulate shipping

Doubtless Outer Reach does not regulate anything as long as you have money.

it sets up a situation where tramp freighters will take advantage of a FoC, In fact telling the player who are playing a militia or space fleet boarding party that a ship is flagged to Outer Reach should be a clue about something.

Real World Benefits of a FoC
1. owners can be legally anomomous and difficult to prosecute in court
2. Ships with FoC have been found to be engaging in crime and terrorism
3. Frequently offer substandard working conditions
4. negatively impact the environment
5. Claimed that they benefit from being able to choose crew from international labour pool

As of 2009 ships with FoC from 13 countries are targeted for special enforcement by the countries they visit.



I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
January 2, 2011 - 8:38am

Lots more information then I was expecting. Thanks everyone. Thinking I see an article or two here. Couple of quick points.

Outer Reach being the way it is may very well allow Malthar to issue Flags of Conveneince and since they would be cheap relatively speaking many frieghter captains would grab them but not necessarily be smugglers.

Now while Trans-Travel might have their own Flags of Conveneince (possibly under a special treaty/contract with UPF) what would the Vrusk Trade Houses use. I always thought of the Vrusk as being based on the Japansese Corporations of the 80s. So if as previous stated they would not use prefixes.

Since Inter-Planetary trade is something regulated by the UPF would a ship be flagged under whatever planet they are home based but still require registry with the UPF. So that in case of emergency or criminal activity they Spacefleet vessel could pull information out of its databank on the ship whether updated or not.

Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
January 2, 2011 - 8:51am
One of the most disappointing things of Star Trak the Next Generation was when they had just defeated the Borg at Wolf 359 and as the blonde temp executive officer was leaving the ship she mentioned that despite losing 40 ships Starfleet would be back up to strength in 18 months.

That means building and crewing 2.2 Starfleet vessels every month. Considering how much they go on and on about how elite Starfleet is that just seemed preposteris.

Using the totals collected about how many ships UPF has and militias during the first Sathar War we come up with 47 Spacefleet ships (15 Assault Scouts or 31%) and 38 Militia ships (29 Assualt Scouts or 76%) for a total of 85 ships (44 Assault Scouts or 52%)
This means Spacefleet is no Starfleet and the lose of even a couple of ships is rather devastating. Considering construction times listed in Knight Hawks both services must have extensive mothballed fleets and inactive reserve officers and enlisted or they could never keep up with loses considering all the loses from even regular service not to mention war.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

Will the Stampede's picture
Will the Stampede
January 2, 2011 - 11:48am
jedion357 wrote:
I like the real world practice of Flags of Conveneince which will allow a ship owner to essentially register a ship and fly the flag of a nation (planet) that he is not a citizen of in order to reduce operation cost or avoid regulations of the owners country.

For example I would veiw Clarion, which already has strict laws concerning gun control and an largish militia as being fairly proactive about regulating shipping, and other nations with a large militia force may also regulate shipping

Doubtless Outer Reach does not regulate anything as long as you have money.

it sets up a situation where tramp freighters will take advantage of a FoC, In fact telling the player who are playing a militia or space fleet boarding party that a ship is flagged to Outer Reach should be a clue about something.

Real World Benefits of a FoC
1. owners can be legally anomomous and difficult to prosecute in court
2. Ships with FoC have been found to be engaging in crime and terrorism
3. Frequently offer substandard working conditions
4. negatively impact the environment
5. Claimed that they benefit from being able to choose crew from international labour pool

As of 2009 ships with FoC from 13 countries are targeted for special enforcement by the countries they visit.




Flags of convenience also work if your ship is regularly up to no good, especially if it's a flag no one would ever suspect you'd fly.

For example, the titular American mercenary spy ship from Clive Cussler's Oregon Files novels flies an Iranian flag most times.

In an SF vein, the Clarionites could send a recon ship(like the Pelican from jedi's game)out to infiltrate/spy on the Malthar and have it flagged as an Outer Reach militia or even a Streel corporate vessel. Who would suspect?

Or, who would've thought that Clarionite-flagged tramp freighter would turn out to be one of the Malthar's own pirate vessels?
" 'Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death."

jedion357's picture
jedion357
January 3, 2011 - 9:14am
rattraveller wrote:
One of the most disappointing things of Star Trak the Next Generation was when they had just defeated the Borg at Wolf 359 and as the blonde temp executive officer was leaving the ship she mentioned that despite losing 40 ships Starfleet would be back up to strength in 18 months.

That means building and crewing 2.2 Starfleet vessels every month. Considering how much they go on and on about how elite Starfleet is that just seemed preposteris.

Using the totals collected about how many ships UPF has and militias during the first Sathar War we come up with 47 Spacefleet ships (15 Assault Scouts or 31%) and 38 Militia ships (29 Assualt Scouts or 76%) for a total of 85 ships (44 Assault Scouts or 52%)
This means Spacefleet is no Starfleet and the lose of even a couple of ships is rather devastating. Considering construction times listed in Knight Hawks both services must have extensive mothballed fleets and inactive reserve officers and enlisted or they could never keep up with loses considering all the loses from even regular service not to mention war.


did you take into account the little statement in KHs that Space Fleet has numerous other patrol groups and smaller strike forces throughout the Frontier (the patrol groups were described as usually consisting of a frigate and two assault scouts). The book does not actually say how many of them exist just that they are out there.

Speaking of which an assault scout is a crappy patrol craft (for space fleet not for militias) as you have to overhaul the engines after every single jump- the frigate makes more sense. I think that a patrol group should be 2 maybe 3 frigates which would make 3 jumps befor an overhaul. Then they could actually patrol and not be stopping all the time for an overhaul. That is unless we want a house rule that a military craft can take down one engine and operate on 1ADF while the engineers overhaul one engine at a time.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

adamm's picture
adamm
January 3, 2011 - 10:43am
jedion357 wrote:

Speaking of which an assault scout is a crappy patrol craft (for space fleet not for militias) as you have to overhaul the engines after every single jump- the frigate makes more sense. I think that a patrol group should be 2 maybe 3 frigates which would make 3 jumps befor an overhaul. Then they could actually patrol and not be stopping all the time for an overhaul. That is unless we want a house rule that a military craft can take down one engine and operate on 1ADF while the engineers overhaul one engine at a time.

We are running dangerously off topic of course, but I think patrols would spend most of their time in system.  With an energy sensor range of 50 hexes and radar range of 30 hexes, you would actually have to spend months running around to scan a substantial area.  The time spent overhauling wouldn't be a big deal then.  I might even consider dropping the frigate and just using the scouts....they could get the sweep done faster and if they run into hot water they can get away easier.

AZ_GAMER's picture
AZ_GAMER
January 3, 2011 - 4:44pm
Maybe we should consider drafting a two jump minimum rule on all jump capable engines. I think that a jump out and jump back prior to overhaul is pretty much a given. If you were to make a long jump out and there is no facilties to do an overhaul then you are pretty much skeeeruuuwwwd when it comes to the long ride home. SFKH FTL Drives are bit perplexing, I would go with a two jump minimum.

jedion357's picture
jedion357
January 3, 2011 - 6:23pm
AZ_GAMER wrote:
Maybe we should consider drafting a two jump minimum rule on all jump capable engines. I think that a jump out and jump back prior to overhaul is pretty much a given. If you were to make a long jump out and there is no facilties to do an overhaul then you are pretty much skeeeruuuwwwd when it comes to the long ride home. SFKH FTL Drives are bit perplexing, I would go with a two jump minimum.


I'm ok with the 1 jump for overhaul on the size A engine though this only applies to atomic engines- its the price of speed.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
January 4, 2011 - 7:05pm

"jedion357" wrote:
Speaking of which an assault scout is a crappy patrol craft (for space fleet not for militias) as you have to overhaul the engines after every single jump- the frigate makes more sense.


As (possibly) indicated by the writers of canon material who penned the frigate as being the mainstay of the UPF --- with the destroyer being the mainstay of the sathar, which IIRC is in the campaign material section of the KH Campaign Book.


But they dropped the ball by assigning assault scouts to Strike Force NOVA (the "roving patrol fleet") in the Sathar War game... 

I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

jedion357's picture
jedion357
January 4, 2011 - 7:24pm
Shadow Shack wrote:

"jedion357" wrote:
Speaking of which an assault scout is a crappy patrol craft (for space fleet not for militias) as you have to overhaul the engines after every single jump- the frigate makes more sense.


As (possibly) indicated by the writers of canon material who penned the frigate as being the mainstay of the UPF --- with the destroyer being the mainstay of the sathar, which IIRC is in the campaign material section of the KH Campaign Book.


But they dropped the ball by assigning assault scouts to Strike Force NOVA (the "roving patrol fleet") in the Sathar War game... 



exactly, which is why I think that the UPF will eventually reduce (not eliminate) the number of assualt scouts in its order of battle and increase the number of FFs. doubtless planets that could never afford a militia will be able to pick up some well used assault scouts on the cheap. plus some will get overhaulled for other purposes- diplomatic couriors, medical ships etc
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Gilbert's picture
Gilbert
January 4, 2011 - 7:30pm
  What I have done for the engine problems in my game is to have different engine qualities that can be purchased and upgrade kits for the engines that let the player go beyond stock engines and make them in to high performers such as the Super Shroom Star drive rebuild kits or Super Fission atomic turbo drive kit. The first one is my players favorite; however, the overhauls cost more than just a few thousand credits for them but for an A type drive to get more than one jump and maybe a third is worth the extra credits plus if you buy now we will install our Slag Stop drive program that will improve performance and reduce the chances of slagging your drives. These drives in my game are not cheap but have been very popular over the stock drives. Even with combustion engines there are after market parts that can improve engine performance and then there is always the hot rodders which I do have some basic rules for that class of engine but no-one was interested into using them. Then there is always classes that the engineer in the group can take that will train how to get more out of the engines. There is no need for a rule make-over just add some goodies that the players can find, buy, or steal, oh, um, requisition. Keep the rules and make it fun for the players to trick out their ship.

This brings back some really fun game sessions memories.

Georgie's picture
Georgie
January 4, 2011 - 9:10pm
Shadow Shack wrote:

But they dropped the ball by assigning assault scouts to Strike Force NOVA (the "roving patrol fleet") in the Sathar War game... 



I disagree. A roving patrol can easily jump into a system and loiter while the scouts overhaul. And when they have to jump multiple systems in a hurry, they can skip the overhaul (KH remastered page 38). Or they can jump on just one engine, overhauling the other during the deceleration/acceleration phase. Remember that ships with atomics don't need their full compliment of engines. This implies the ability for a two atomic engine ship like the scout to jump with one. If all else fails and the need for the fleet is great, a good admiral will leave them behind before he lets them slow down the fleet.
The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.    * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
January 5, 2011 - 6:32am
A once again you have forgotten the basic driving force behind all military endeavors.

Logistics

Assault Scouts needing to be overhauled constantly do not serve Spacefleet well. Plus if most of the crew is overhauling the engines constantly they are not helping with the mission. This increases the crews workload and decreases the overall mission effectiveness.

Not to the majority of an Assault Scouts weapons require resupply. Is the Assault Scout carrying all the extra missiles? Is there a supply ship floating along with them which then needs to be defended? Assault Scouts are very tied to their homebases/systems and not a great choice for Spacefleet but a really good choice for Militias who don't have to have them leave their system to often.

I think the clue to the Assault Scout is the line that they were developed by the Pan-Galactic Corp. As with other government contracts it is usually the government and industry pushing a product on the military whether they want it or not. Sometimes to the great detriment of the military.

Examples: Sgt York air defense system,  Osprey tilt wing aircraft,  Original M-16 and the ammo needed for it.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
January 5, 2011 - 3:46pm
Keep in mind, everything I mentioned applies to Strike Force NOVA --- the roving fleet. Task Forces Prenglar and Cassidine are typically insystem most of the time, so their assault scouts serve as "militia duty" for the most part and it becomes moot.

Georgie wrote:
I disagree. A roving patrol can easily jump into a system and loiter while the scouts overhaul.


If the next jump is a short jump (4-5 LY) the astrogation team is usually finished before the engineering team. Moreso when risk-jumping...

Quote:
And when they have to jump multiple systems in a hurry, they can skip the overhaul (KH remastered page 38).

 
Truth be told, I never looked at the remastered stuff yet. If it's different from canon, then it's moot as I mentioned canon. If it's the same, the chance of slagging comes into play (with said chance increasing with each consecutive un-overhauled jump, at 60/80/100% per drive).

Once you slag your drive, it's done. Slag 'em all, and you're as good as hulked.

Quote:
Or they can jump on just one engine, overhauling the other during the deceleration/acceleration phase. Remember that ships with atomics don't need their full compliment of engines. This implies the ability for a two atomic engine ship like the scout to jump with one.


Restricting ADF...to which I would house rule as half normal in this case. Rounded up or down it becomes practically worthless compared to the rest of the fleet's performance, and the fleet ends up "waiting on the scouts" either way.

Canon mentions if a ship is not outfitted with the specified number of drives, ADF or MR is reduced by 1 per reduced drive. Personally, I can't see an assault scout at minus-one drive performing the same as a stock civilian HS:3 ship with two fully functional drives...hence my house rule. Wink

But in all fairness, since I mentioned canon we must stick to canon. As such the canon "minus-one drive" assault scout will be at either ADF:4 or MR:3 (with the latter disabling the assault rockets since you need a minimum MR of 4), assuming you choose to equate starship construction rules with "number of drives reduced  by choice after construction".

And that brings up the debate of ion versus atomic --- for a HS:20 freighter you can opt for eight ion drives or one to seven atomics and still end up with an ADF of 1 either way, going by canon construction rules. And that really falls apart in such scenarios...with one to seven atomics each capable of jumping 20 times between overhauls and running one at a time, you can go forever without working on them all the while having the same performance as a fully outfitted ion driven craft (re: it costs less for two atomics and you get the same ADF as eight ions, run one at a time and make forty jumps).
 
Quote:
If all else fails and the need for the fleet is great, a good admiral will leave them behind before he lets them slow down the fleet.


No arguements there. After all, they still have a carrier with fighters when it's all said and done.


"rattraveller" wrote:
Not to the majority of an Assault Scouts weapons require resupply. Is the Assault Scout carrying all the extra missiles? Is there a supply ship floating along with them which then needs to be defended? Assault Scouts are very tied to their homebases/systems and not a great choice for Spacefleet but a really good choice for Militias who don't have to have them leave their system to often.


I would rule that the carrier maintains a generous supply of assault rockets which the scouts can draw from. Barring that, the scouts still can't dock with the carrier and as such reloading would still take some time as the carrier's workpods shuttle the rockets around (assuming the carrier doesn't need said pods for fixing itself first).
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

jedion357's picture
jedion357
January 5, 2011 - 7:13pm
@ shadow- sure a HS 20 ship could make 40 jumps the way you say but as per the canon rules a freighter will wait 2d10 days in a system (if he has an office) but 3d10 days for a cargo if he not set up an office. which mean there is time to overhaul the 'tomics. The stink of it will be the cost of atomic fuel over ion fuel.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

AZ_GAMER's picture
AZ_GAMER
January 5, 2011 - 7:32pm
very good discussion

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
January 6, 2011 - 5:20pm
Quote:
sure a HS 20 ship could make 40 jumps the way you say but as per the canon rules a freighter will wait 2d10 days in a system (if he has an office) but 3d10 days for a cargo if he not set up an office. which mean there is time to overhaul the 'tomics. The stink of it will be the cost of atomic fuel over ion fuel.


Assuming the hold is empty...if said freighter already has a cargo it can just "keep on spacing" and jump to all 36 of the Frontier's systems (at least going by Zeb's Guide, not counting the Rim) without an overhaul.

Yes, the fuel is going to cost more either way. But the point I'm making is the mediocrity of the canon ruling about reduced drives versus performance: you need a full compliment of ion drives to have ADF:1, yet one to seven out of eight atomic drives on the HS:20 ship still yields the same thing (you do lose the second MR point --- or that a minus-one drive assault scout still has the same performance as a full two atomic drive civilian scout ship.

In other words, a semi with a gasoline engine pulls the same load up a hill as one with a Cummins diesel with only one spark plug connected, or disconnect two spark plug wires from a hopped up Ford Ranger and it'll run the same as a stock Ranger with all four plug wires attached...I'm just not buying into it.

I could even cite a modern day jet fighter scenario: the F-20 Tiger Shark is an armed T-38 Talon trainer jet. Shut one of the two F-20 engines off and it will never keep up with the fully functional T-38 moving at full throttle...that's your one drive assault scout versus two drive civie scout comparo.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

SFAndroid's picture
SFAndroid
January 6, 2011 - 6:26pm
Waaaaay back in the day, my group thought the number of jumps per engine type thing was a bit excessive.  What we came up with was a concept just like cars, scheduled maintenance.

Depending on the ship size, engine size and number, and amount of power needed for defense/offense, crazy manuevers, etc. the ship would then need work.  Over standard use, an assault scout would require bi-monthly maintenance, due to it only having 2 engines to supply power to all systems.  A HS20 vessel just patrolling the spacelanes could go a whole year between maintenance windows.

Damage also affected maintenance windows, obviously.  Unfortunately, it's been, oh, around 28 years since I've actually sat down to play the game, so I'm a bit rusty on the details, but, this gives you the general idea of what we did.

Thanks!
You can't argue with the invincibly ignorant. - William F. Buckley

Deryn_Rys's picture
Deryn_Rys
January 6, 2011 - 6:53pm
To keep things simple in my version of the Knighthawks rules every ship pays a yearly maintenance fee which comes out to about 1% of the cost of the ship, which covers every overhaul, every licencing fee, life support refill, space port docking fee, fuel etc, and if this fee is not paid, there is a 5% chance/trip that something happens to the ship. The bad things could include ship breakdowns, visits by investors, Star Law agents wanting to collect licencing fees etc.

As for the atomic engines vs. ion engine question, since space ships do not lose speed over distance in space is the question of one ADF or faster speed outside of combat really important except to determine how long it takes for a ship to jump into the void? I mean if you can overhaul one engine while in flight and you are not in any immediate danger then go for it.

I think I'm just getting old, but lately I've found myself worrying less and less about the little things and thinking more and more about the thrill of the adventure. Anyway I am enjoying your debate, and I'm seeing things in Knighthawks that I always just took for granted and never put much thought into explained in ways that has made me start to wonder why hadn't I noticed that before. So please continue with the discussion.
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Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
January 6, 2011 - 9:17pm

I have often contemplated an annual maintennace cost based on ship value...although I have to say 1% is pretty generous if it covers docking fees and fuel on top of the rest of that list.

SF/KH-1 Dramune Run cites the Gullwind's berthing fees at Majora Station totaling 1000Cr per month, at a ten month year that amounts to 10K per year for one berth at one station, or 1% of a 1,000,000cr ship per year. Fuel would be the other debate on that list, at one 10K pellet per drive per jump. Garlus Tylappar burned up 150K worth of fuel going from Dramune to Theseus and doubling back to White Light where the players sign on as crew (according to the log supplied in the ship roster in that module that took less than a month --- 8/21/61 to 9/12/61), and the players burn up another 90K returning the ship to Dramune. That's 240K Cr worth of fuel in under two months.

But I wouldn't be opposed to the rest of that list.

Quote:
As for the atomic engines vs. ion engine question, since space ships do not lose speed over distance in space is the question of one ADF or faster speed outside of combat really important except to determine how long it takes for a ship to jump into the void? I mean if you can overhaul one engine while in flight and you are not in any immediate danger then go for it.


Right, and even accelerating along at 1G it's moot...after all someone here did the math and it comes out to expending one ADF point per half hour (insteaed of one per ten minute combat turn) for one gee. Still, I find it rather far fetched that a reduced-atomic drive ship can perform so well when called upon.

After all, you could probably pull most of your car's spark plug wires and still get to work with it running as such. You'd be impeding traffic with slow take-offs at every stop, and if you hopped on the freeway you'd literally become a rolling road block, but it could be done. A Schwinn might get you there faster, but like I said --- it's feasible. But to claim that a hopped up version of the same engine (atomic) can do it better when impeded as such versus the unmolested stock engine (ion) is preposterous. Even a NASCAR motor running on two cylinders produces less power than the equivilent stock/civilian version of the same engine running on all eight cylinders.


"You just slagged one of your assault scout's atomic drives."

"That's okay, we're out of range of the pursuing pirate frigate's guns and their fully functional trio of atomic B drives will never catch us at our reduced ADF (which is now the same as said pursuing frigate)."

That's what I'm getting at. The crippled assault scout can still accelerate just as fast as the undamaged pirate frigate. Both can accelerate up to sub jump speeds and the frigate will never get into combat range. Both can coast indefinitely at sub-jump velocity (after all, if the frigate tries to accelerate further --- it enters the void, with or without jump coordinates) until said scout's remaining drive gets overhauled. Pretty far fetched, don'tcha think?


Or, here's another scenario:

"Your dreadnaught just slagged an atomic drive."
"Feh, we only lost one ADF or MR point. We can still accelerate and decelerate as well as maneuver."

"Your dreadnaught just slagged two atomic drives."
"Feh, we only lost one ADF point and one MR point. We can still accelerate and decelerate as well as maneuver."

"Your dreadnaught just slagged three atomic drives."
"Feh, we only lost one ADF point and one MR point. We can still accelerate and decelerate as well as maneuver."

"Your dreadnaught just slagged half of your atomic drives."
"Feh, we only lost one ADF point and one MR point. We can still accelerate and decelerate as well as maneuver."

That pattern goes on up to the seventh slagging of the eight available drives...the minimum ADF or MR regardless of how many atomic drives you have left is still at least one each, even with one out of eight drives. 

 

Furthermore, that rule only applies to ship construction, not damage...there is no ruling to accrued damage save for combat hits on the damage table, which technically isn't applicable to losing a drive to lack of maintenance. That, and the construction rule allows the owner to choose which end of the performance gets effected as such...but it's the only canon rule that a ref can fall back on.

Speaking of which, invoke that dreadnaught example above to construction costs. It begs the question: why build a dreadnaught with eight atomic drives when one drive works just as well as six? Think about it, that dreadnaught with one atomic drive only needs a level one Alarm program, level one Damage Control program, etc instead of the usual LVL:6 software, and when it's all said and done it will perform as well as the full-specification ion driven dreadnaught (the latter of which "benefits" from an MR of 2 instead of 1). Dreadnaughts aren't supposed to be affordable, but you can build a one atomic C driven dreadnaught on the cheap going by canon and lose virtually nothing: 750K Cr for the drivetrain versus 8 Ion C drives at 1.6M Cr or eight atomic C drives at 6M Cr --- then factor in 3K for the software (LVL:1 Alarm & Damage Control programs) versus 96K for the same pair of LVL:6 programs for eight drives. That cuts your dreadnaught construction costs down to HS:6 freighter grades! (if only reaching LVL:6 pilot in order to fly it was that easy)


The ratio just needs to be re-examined here, that's all I'm saying. -1 ADF or MR point per lost atomic drive isn't a clear cut definition, not even for "game balance" as the rest of the canon rules are set up for. It should reflect the specified total and how many are left as a percentage compared to performance adjustments as an equal percentage...lose half of your engines and you should lose half of your performance. Sure, it's not quite that linear if you do the math, but it's definitely more realistic and certainly more balanced.

I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website