The Real Second Sathar War

Imperial Lord's picture
Imperial Lord
April 9, 2009 - 7:51am
Ok lads, here's a crazy one...

What would the ACTUAL Frontier muster of ALL armed ships in the Known Galaxy be?

After all, I would imagine that all vessels - corporate fleets, privateers, system ships, and possibly even pirates would fight the Sathar.

The motley group of ships would easily be double or triple the size of the UPF!

Now of course, for play balance, this would require at least the doubling of the Sathar Fleet.

The civilian ships would be not as good as the UPF, of course.  But they would be there.  What would the composition of all of that be?
Comments:

Anonymous's picture
w00t (not verified)
April 9, 2009 - 8:27am
You could take each system, list the ship types that would be present and start building stats for them. I imagine each freighter encountered would have at least a laser battery and reflective hull. A freighter could take out Sathar fighters... I'd have to think this one out to provide even a rough guess. :-)

Wow, good post. +1

pineappleleader's picture
pineappleleader
April 9, 2009 - 7:12pm
It would be one hell of a show. Kind of like the British Fleet at Dunkirk. They even had sailing ships respond to the call. Anything that could float and make a trip there and back again.

Once the call to fight the Sather was issued, you are likely to see anything that is space-worthy. Anything at all.

Imperial Lord's picture
Imperial Lord
April 9, 2009 - 7:46pm
Exactly, pineappleleader.

For a TRUE measure of the situation, the ships involved would actually be far more.

Will's picture
Will
April 10, 2009 - 8:46am
Another good example of a civilian muster can be found in Kris Longknife: Defiant, where Kris is forced to rely on a ragtag fleet of freighters, yachts, runabouts, generally any spaceworthy hull, to augment a small force of two DDs and twelve patrol boats. as they take on six big, bad, battlewagons(HS 20 w/27×LC and 50+ LB, in KH terms, tho the stats don't quite translate).

Kris won the battle, but lost most of the ships in the process....

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

pineappleleader's picture
pineappleleader
April 10, 2009 - 2:28pm
Will wrote:
Kris Longknife: Defiant

I have heard of this, but don't know anything about it. I think it is a series(?).

Who wrote it and do you recommend it?

TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
April 10, 2009 - 7:35pm
You'd defninitely be dealing with hundreds or thousands of ships per system depending on it's population.  Since piracy exists, and compared to the cost of the rest of the ship, laser batteries don't cost all that much, any interstellar capable ship will probabaly be outfitted with as many laser batteries as they can without sacrificing preformance.  That means you have hundreds or thousands of laser battery platforms floating around the system at any given time even if they aren't mustered  And each one of those platforms has a decent number of hull points that it is going to take some effort to get them out of the fight.

Even if you could muster only 10% of the ship in the system into a battle (the other's being out of range, unwilling/unable to participate, etc), that still leaves you with tens to hundreds of additional weapons that you could bring to bear.  Using the unskilled percentage column from the game rules and assuming an average shot from 5 hexes (the merchies want to stay out of torpedo range if they can), each ship hits about 15% of the time.  On average, each hit will do double damage 10% of the time (average 11 points of damage) and normal damage 35% of the time (average 5.5 points of damage).  So applying a little probability math gives the following, any given ship does an average of (0.15 * (0.10*11+0.35*5.5)) = 0.45 Hull Point of damage per time they fire.  That doesn't count the othe system hits that they will do (an average of 0.15*0.55 = 0.08 System hits per short or 1 every 12 shots)

That's not much for any individual weapon, but if you take 50 ships each with one LB a piece and remember that they fire twice per turn (once on defense and once on offense) they do, on average, every turn, 8.25 system hits and 45 HP.  That translates into destroying one frigate every round with a little left over for some other ships.

The interesting thing is, if the sathar vessels push in close enough to use their torpedos and rocket batteries (3 hexes), the merchies become even more effective,  At a range of 3 hexes on average, the damage from 50 ships jumps up to 75 HP a turn and 13.75 system hits.  That will take out a Light Cruiser or Assault Carrier.  If the civies get really brave and storm into the same hex as a sathar vessel, those 50 ships will do an average of 120 HP and 22 system hits.

At the same time, a frigate, with average gunner skills, at a range of 5 hexes will do an average of 2.8 HP with it's laser cannon and laser battery.  Moving in to 3 hexes to use it's RB and T improves it's hull damage to 15.33 HP a turn.  (My flight's about to leave so I don't have time to compute system hits).  Thus at a range of 5 hexes, it takes 4 civies to equal a frigate and at a range of 3 hexes a frigate is equal to 20 civies becuase of it's torps and rocket batteries, however they are quickly used up and they fall back to the 4 to 1 ratio.

The strength here is the strength of the herd, the civilian ships would mass together for mutual protection.  To attack one, you have to come after all of them. 
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pineappleleader's picture
pineappleleader
April 10, 2009 - 8:25pm
@TerlObar: What did Han Solo say? "Never tell me the odds."

That is all true, in the abstract, but not in real battle; even in a board game, because it doesn't take into account brilliant and poor ship handling or good or bad luck. Also, as ships drop out of the fight the odds will change.  Still it does demonstrate that the Sather combat (line?) ships will not have it all there own way, even against merchant ships.

Will's picture
Will
April 11, 2009 - 5:20pm
pineappleleader wrote:
Will wrote:
Kris Longknife: Defiant

I have heard of this, but don't know anything about it. I think it is a series(?).

Who wrote it and do you recommend it?


In order, it's a series of six books written by Mike Sheppherd.

I definitely recommend any of the books; Kris Longknife is a viable alternative to Honor Harrington and a much more real character to boot.

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

Will's picture
Will
April 11, 2009 - 5:24pm
TerlObar wrote:
You'd defninitely be dealing with hundreds or thousands of ships per system depending on it's population.  Since piracy exists, and compared to the cost of the rest of the ship, laser batteries don't cost all that much, any interstellar capable ship will probabaly be outfitted with as many laser batteries as they can without sacrificing preformance.  That means you have hundreds or thousands of laser battery platforms floating around the system at any given time even if they aren't mustered  And each one of those platforms has a decent number of hull points that it is going to take some effort to get them out of the fight.

Even if you could muster only 10% of the ship in the system into a battle (the other's being out of range, unwilling/unable to participate, etc), that still leaves you with tens to hundreds of additional weapons that you could bring to bear.  Using the unskilled percentage column from the game rules and assuming an average shot from 5 hexes (the merchies want to stay out of torpedo range if they can), each ship hits about 15% of the time.  On average, each hit will do double damage 10% of the time (average 11 points of damage) and normal damage 35% of the time (average 5.5 points of damage).  So applying a little probability math gives the following, any given ship does an average of (0.15 * (0.10*11+0.35*5.5)) = 0.45 Hull Point of damage per time they fire.  That doesn't count the othe system hits that they will do (an average of 0.15*0.55 = 0.08 System hits per short or 1 every 12 shots)

That's not much for any individual weapon, but if you take 50 ships each with one LB a piece and remember that they fire twice per turn (once on defense and once on offense) they do, on average, every turn, 8.25 system hits and 45 HP.  That translates into destroying one frigate every round with a little left over for some other ships.

The interesting thing is, if the sathar vessels push in close enough to use their torpedos and rocket batteries (3 hexes), the merchies become even more effective,  At a range of 3 hexes on average, the damage from 50 ships jumps up to 75 HP a turn and 13.75 system hits.  That will take out a Light Cruiser or Assault Carrier.  If the civies get really brave and storm into the same hex as a sathar vessel, those 50 ships will do an average of 120 HP and 22 system hits.

At the same time, a frigate, with average gunner skills, at a range of 5 hexes will do an average of 2.8 HP with it's laser cannon and laser battery.  Moving in to 3 hexes to use it's RB and T improves it's hull damage to 15.33 HP a turn.  (My flight's about to leave so I don't have time to compute system hits).  Thus at a range of 5 hexes, it takes 4 civies to equal a frigate and at a range of 3 hexes a frigate is equal to 20 civies becuase of it's torps and rocket batteries, however they are quickly used up and they fall back to the 4 to 1 ratio.

The strength here is the strength of the herd, the civilian ships would mass together for mutual protection.  To attack one, you have to come after all of them. 


Wow...still and all, the civ casaulties from the action would be horrendous.

Oh, and pineapple, if you ever do pick up KrisLongknife:Defiant, you'll find Sheppherd mentions the sealift at Dunkirk first in his foreword. 

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

Rum Rogue's picture
Rum Rogue
April 12, 2009 - 8:34am
Will wrote:
Wow...still and all, the civ casaulties from the action would be horrendous.
 


yeah, but how many are going to run after the first hit, how many more are going to run after a buddy gets blown out of the sky?

How many private and corperate ships are going to refuse to join because of various reasons?
Time flies when your having rum.

Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time.

Will's picture
Will
April 12, 2009 - 11:05am
The runners and the refusers will be balanced out by those who don't want to live under Sathar rule.

As to how many are going to run after a buddy gets blown out of the sky, more likely the response will be,"those bastards torched Edmonds, voggin' kill those worm dead!"

 

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

jedion357's picture
jedion357
April 12, 2009 - 1:00pm
Will wrote:
The runners and the refusers will be balanced out by those who don't want to live under Sathar rule.

As to how many are going to run after a buddy gets blown out of the sky, more likely the response will be,"those bastards torched Edmonds, voggin' kill those worm dead!"

 


Death is different when you actually see the blood and gore so a buddy being killed in another ship probably wont really have the same effect as a buddy getting killed next to you.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Ascent's picture
Ascent
April 12, 2009 - 8:16pm
I beg to differ. When you know the ship and have met those on it, it can be a profound effect. Also, how did you feel when the Twin Trade towers collapsed? I watched it as it was happening. I watched the second plane crash live. I watched the suicides as people jumped from the burning rooms. When the first tower collapsed, my blood went cold and the thought of the thousands of people in those buildings went through my head even though I never knew a single one of them and it happened again when the second one went down. To this day I can't help but tear up thinking about it.

When ships are destroyed, everyone around feels the loss, not as much for the small ones as the big ones, but it's there even for the small ones. You know there are lives on those ships and that knowledge is what affects you.
View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write.
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"That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi
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jedion357's picture
jedion357
April 12, 2009 - 9:38pm
Ascent I respect your opinion but I stand by my statement that death is different when its up close and personal. I have had someone expire with my hand on his chest and while I didn't really know him that well is stayed with me for years (for over 7 it really bugged me) and yet hearing that someone I know fairly well has died "off stage" from my perspective it doesn't impact me like Franks death. Maybe I'm unusual in this.

And though I've never been in battle with people dying around me I still think that death in that setting has to have a greater impact than when its a blip on a screen that ceases to be and in side you know that that blip represented friends and associates. Thats not to say it doesn't effect you as it does its just that witnessing the actual death of another being is really buggy.

Maybe I was too introspective about Frank's death and dwelt on it on and off for years and that was the root of my problem with his death. but I can testify that the death of an essential stranger where I was holding him as he died jacked me up more than the death of my favorite cousin who died 2 states away and I wept almost uncontrollably over his coffin where as I never really cried for Frank.

So I have to stand by death that is in your face has greater impact.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Ascent's picture
Ascent
April 12, 2009 - 10:34pm
Your reaction is normal.

But again, there's a difference between hearing about it and witnessing it, even if it's just a blip disappearing from the screen. You know there are people on the ship that exist one second and then cease to exist the next second. However, the more blips on the screen, the less value each blip has. But should one of those ships break apart or explode before your eyes, the impact will be much greater, as one minute you saw it as your fellow combatant and you would have come to its rescue (perhaps you did and there was just nothing you could do), but the next minute it is being destroyed, and that will have an impact on you.

Yes, the more immediate a death is to you, visually, and the more subjects lost within your line of sight, the greater the impact on your psyche. But these are shades of difference, not chasms. Yes, there is a chasm of difference between "hearing about" someone dying and actually holding someone dying in your arms. But between those two points there are shades of difference regarding manner, sensory input, relationship, immediacy, and volume.

When one person dies, people say "that's a shame", but when hundreds of people die, they say "Oh my God, that's horrible." When you watch someone die on a live news cast, your countenance may drop for them, but should you see hundreds of people die on a live news cast, suddenly you're in shock. Should the person you watched die just drop from a gun shot, again your countenance may fall, but should you watch them get butchered, you are suddenly mortified. If you hear a news report about a family being slaughtered, you think about safeguarding your family, but if you see the family's bodies being carried out of a house on the news, you may become incensed and hope to see justice done. If you hear that your friend died last year, you may feel bad for them and remember them. But if someone says to you that your friend just died, your heart may break.
View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write.
"It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi
"That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi
Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild)

aramis's picture
aramis
April 13, 2009 - 4:13pm
The twin towers had not effect on me emotionally until they became a justification for destruction of civil rights. Just another distant calamity.

The Shuttle Accidents, however, both really ticked me off.

Watching a friend dying of cancer, even tho' I did not witness his death hour, was an order more profound than either, and slightly more profound than the boy who I saw hit by a semi, a former student of mine. I covered him with a blanket, and kept him from bleeding out as best I could; an open fracture of the cranium is profound. He died as they loaded him into the ambulance; he was never resuscitated; DOA at the hospital. The smile as he ran from his mother into traffic lingers still. But it's not half as profound as Dale's last few days. Nor Sister Dorothy's last few days. People dying before me, and my inability to help them, that hurts. John's death from ALS was a joyous thing, a release to sing for the man gone mute; still, 20 years later, it is an empty spot, tho'...

The pain will hit more when you hear the screams, tho'... and with a buddy in a fighter, you might not hear, and probably won't have time to react.

Will's picture
Will
April 13, 2009 - 5:42pm
The 3d Musketeer wrote:
The twin towers had not effect on me emotionally until they became a justification for destruction of civil rights. Just another distant calamity.

The Shuttle Accidents, however, both really ticked me off.

Watching a friend dying of cancer, even tho' I did not witness his death hour, was an order more profound than either, and slightly more profound than the boy who I saw hit by a semi, a former student of mine. I covered him with a blanket, and kept him from bleeding out as best I could; an open fracture of the cranium is profound. He died as they loaded him into the ambulance; he was never resuscitated; DOA at the hospital. The smile as he ran from his mother into traffic lingers still. But it's not half as profound as Dale's last few days. Nor Sister Dorothy's last few days. People dying before me, and my inability to help them, that hurts. John's death from ALS was a joyous thing, a release to sing for the man gone mute; still, 20 years later, it is an empty spot, tho'...

The pain will hit more when you hear the screams, tho'... and with a buddy in a fighter, you might not hear, and probably won't have time to react.


Well said, sir, very well said.

All in all, how death affects you depends on the situation, the whole situation, including how used one is to seeing people die, and their ability to depersonalize it.

Me, Kayla Rowland's being shot dead in Mount Morris, Michigan nine years ago by her classmate bothered me, really bad. But what pissed me off was when the idiot district attorney, on 60 Minutes II, compared the gun the little brat used to kill another child to his kid bringing Pokemon cards to school(the analogy visibly upset Morley Safer as well, I remember the interview).

Up close or far away, death bothers me, especially deaths by violence, through hate or out of sheer waste. 

What really bothers me, tho, are the human vultures who are prepared to turn someone else's death and a family's sorrow into a sick attmept to make book for their own political/personal agenda, e.g. Fred Phelps and his wackjobs(since they're a state away from me, and too close to home) using the funerals of our servicemen as an excuse to get in people's faces and scream "God hates f---!" and tell grieving families that their sons are going to Hell, cause they're defending  a degenerate nation.

Every time I see that, I want to just rip those freaking signs out of their hands and jam them where the sun don't shine, y'know.  

9/11, same way. Instead of mourning 3,000 dead, Falwell and the rest start gloating about that being God's punishment, and then wondering why America looked at them and asked "WTF is wrong with you?!"

The fact our Government used it as an excuse to further roll back our civil rights is only another thing which made me ashamed to be an American.

At the same time, 9/11 was a bad shock to the system, just one of those days where you're praying,"Jesus Christ, this can't be real," over and over...and, at the same time, it showed the whole damn world just what we could be when we come together:

Carlos Mencia wrote:
We just fight amongst ourselves, because we like drama. But when someone comes over to our country and starts blowing up buildings, then it's "Cracker! Darkie! Beaner! Wonder Twin Powers, activate!"


Same with the Columbia and Challenger tragedies...just the sheer shock and sadness of such incredibly horrid and sudden events, balanced by seeing our best come through in a time of need.

Along, with the vultures of course, but only vigiliance helps there.

Peace.  

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
April 13, 2009 - 9:53pm
pineappleleader wrote:
@TerlObar: What did Han Solo say? "Never tell me the odds."

That is all true, in the abstract, but not in real battle; even in a board game, because it doesn't take into account brilliant and poor ship handling or good or bad luck. Also, as ships drop out of the fight the odds will change.  Still it does demonstrate that the Sather combat (line?) ships will not have it all there own way, even against merchant ships.

I agree completely.  In a real fight, it's not about statistics, but actual hits and misses.  That was just some averaged numbers to provide scale.  If you get enough ships, however, things will tend toward the averages.  In that regards, the large mass of merchants have a bit of an advantage.  There are enough ships that you should come close to the averages where the smaller number of Sathar vessels are on the individual shot side, some shots will hit, some won't.  If they get lucky, they could do a lot of damage but at the same time they could miss as well.

Even so, you have to remember that they can only do so much damage a round.  If your average merchant ship is size 6, that's 30 HP, meaning it takes about two rounds for our hypothetical frigate to completely take it out on average.  If it gets lucky and hits with it's torpedo, it will probably take it out in a round, if not it will problably get it the next round.  In the mean time, his buddy has been snuffed out by the civie mob.  50 ships at 30 HP each is 1500 HP of damage that needs to be done to destroy them all.  That is going to take some time.  And remember, after the first few rounds, the military ships will have used all their expendable weapons and be down to energy weapons just like the civilian ships, greatly improving the civilian chances (just stay away from those disruptor cannonsSmile).

In reality, most of the merchants would probably flee after taking a hit.  In fact, if there were enough of them around, I'd probably encourage them to do so.  Get out of dodge, get repaired and come back to the fight or live to fight another day.  The Sathar would have too many other ships to deal with to pursue ones running away so there is a good chance they'd get away cleanly.

It's an interesting question, I think I'll have to break out my KH board and run a couple of scenarios and see what happens.  (more delays to getting my computer game done.Undecided)
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Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
April 14, 2009 - 2:42am
This reminds me of the "SDA Takeover in Histran" in my campaign.

In a nutshell, an upstart dictator wishing to wrest control of a Frontier world so he may secede from the UPF so as to further his militant agenda, eventually conquering the Frontier and taking over. However, despite a decent fleet of warships and star fighters, the Histran scenario gets thwarted by a confederation of independant ship owners that frequent the system, aided by the defeated Histran fighter squadron that retreated to the neighboring world of Hakosaor (and their pair of assault scouts). The civilian craft included a salvaged/rebuilt frigate (minus the torpedo system), a heavily armored HS:7 freighter (see the Timeon Clipper in the Deck Plans section), a system ship freight hauler, a HS:4 gunned escort, an RT-3100 merchant scout (see Deck Plans or SFman #11), a Nova class yacht, a HS:4 light freight hauler, a HS:3 scout ship, and an unwilling pirate corvette whose crew merely wishes to reacquire a secret weapons stash on the surface. It was designed as a three part battle, unless players were fortunate enough to wrap it up in fewer sessions.

But there is one such composition that could easily get stacked against a sathat detachment in a similar situation.
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jedion357's picture
jedion357
April 14, 2009 - 10:31am
Still no matter how much any individual of a crew is impacted by the death of another ship and its crew I don't see a civilian ship that already commited to battle running unless the captain loses his nerve and orders the ship to run or unless crew whole sale loses their nerve and shoot or restrain the captain and turn the ship around. It one thing when an individual soldier loses his nerve and runs but I think it plays out different in a ship. One crew man might run and hide in his cabin but the ship is likely to carry on.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Imperial Lord's picture
Imperial Lord
April 14, 2009 - 8:46pm
In so far as the wargame is concerned, I would think that the civvy ships would have to take morale checks as they get blasted.

Big penalties would not only apply to ships that lose their fellow deputies, but also would have to look out for damage to their ships.  I would imagine many of the captains flipping out and running away.  After all, they are only civilians...

Plus, it adds a random element to the game and reduces the advantage of the UPF.

Some would also wimp out of the muster.  Then some would insist that they "protect the station" or whatever and have some sort of lame restriction on their deployment that the Sathar can tactically exploit - or not...

TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
April 14, 2009 - 10:03pm
Okay, just for fun I busted out my hex map, counters and dice and ran the following scenario set in the Pale system (the fight lasted 9 rounds and took me about 3 hours):

Sathar Fleet:
16 Fighters, 4 Frigates, 5 Destroyers, 3 Light Cruisers, 2 Heavy Cruisers and 2 Assault Carriers

UPF Fleet:
1 Fortress, Pale Militia (1 frigate, 3 AS), 1 Light Cruiser, 1 Frigate, 2 Assault Scouts and 50 merchants

For thet merchants I used the following generic ship:
HS 6, Ion drives, 1 LB and RH
Which gave them the following relevant Knight Hawk statistics:
HP 30, ADF 1, MR 3, DCR 38, LB, RH
I also gave them a level 0 gunner (i.e. used the shaded column on the combat table) while letting the military ships have average gunners (using the unshaded column).

Technically, a HS 6 ship couldn't have a RH and a LB without sacrificing a MR point but in truth any merchant ship from hull size 5 to 14 could have those movement statistics and on the larger ships you could have 2 LB so it's reasonable.

In the end, the UPF lost the station, the light cruiser, both frigates, all the assault scouts and 1 merchant with four other merchants damaged and out of the fight.

The Sathar lost 12 fighters, 1 frigate, 3 destroyers, all three light cruisers, and one assault carrier with one of the remaining fighters heavily damaged and light damage (-2 MR and -15 HP) to one of the remaining destroyers.

The UPF lost a total of 565 HP worth of ships and the Sathar lost 513 HP worth of ships.

From a control of the system standpoint, the UPF won the battle as the Sathar pulled out.  The merchant swarm was effectively eliminating one capital ship per turn, sometimes one per movment phase (i.e. one on the Sathar movement phase and one on the UPF movment phase).  At the same time, the Sathar were eliminating about 1-2 ships around as well (or at least damaging them enough to get them to pull out of the fight)  If the Sathar had stuck around they would have been eventually be completely wiped out.

Eventually the Sathar just scattered and took advantage of their higher ADF to out run the merchant ships.  If I had given the merchants atomic drives instead of ion drives, they would most likely have been able to chase down a few more of the bigger ships before they got away.  It would simply be limited by the fact that the Sathar scattered in all directions and the merchants had to stay in a fairly large group to be effective and would have had to pick their targets allowing others to escape.

Anyway, it was kind of fun (although a lot of dice rolling to roll 50 laser batteries each round Foot in mouth).  I actually recorded round by round ship losses if there was any great desire to know how it played out in detail. 
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TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
April 14, 2009 - 10:13pm
Imperial Lord wrote:
In so far as the wargame is concerned, I would think that the civvy ships would have to take morale checks as they get blasted.

Big penalties would not only apply to ships that lose their fellow deputies, but also would have to look out for damage to their ships.  I would imagine many of the captains flipping out and running away.  After all, they are only civilians...

Plus, it adds a random element to the game and reduces the advantage of the UPF.

Some would also wimp out of the muster.  Then some would insist that they "protect the station" or whatever and have some sort of lame restriction on their deployment that the Sathar can tactically exploit - or not...

For my little test I used the following rule, if the merchant lost any HP, it's ADF, more than one MR or it's weapon, it took the quickest route out of the battle.  I had a couple lose all their MR and go drifting off and a few run due to damage.  Playing any ship would leave after taking any damage probably would have made a bit of a difference as the Sathar would have figured it out after a round or two and started spreading their shots around a bit more.  However, the first few rounds the Sathar were busy trying not to get toasted by the torpedos and assault rockets to worry about the merchants.  It was only later when they were more scattered and whittled down that they started really taking on the merchants ships. 
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Anonymous's picture
w00t (not verified)
April 15, 2009 - 7:14am

Are there house rules for minimizing the die rolling by grouping either the ship rolls or weapon rolls together?

Although I like to roll dice as much as the next dral... 50 just for LB's is a lot!

jedion357's picture
jedion357
April 15, 2009 - 11:26am
w00t wrote:

Are there house rules for minimizing the die rolling by grouping either the ship rolls or weapon rolls together?

Although I like to roll dice as much as the next dral... 50 just for LB's is a lot!


you could just not roll at all! if the chance to hit is 60% then 60% of the 50 LBs hit which would be 30 hits and if you dont wish to roll the damage dice then apply the bell curve and make each shot count at 5 or 6 under the basic rules for KH. you could roll for the UPF and sathar ship then just do the quick and dirty extrapolation for the 50 frieghters.
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Anonymous's picture
w00t (not verified)
April 15, 2009 - 1:20pm
Very good idea.
We need some Massive Ship Resolution Rules.

Maybe Terl can integrate this into this game... Innocent

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
April 15, 2009 - 6:21pm
One thing I would touch on for civilian ships: only a few of them would be around for a battle in the first place. Unlike warships, which are purpose designed for patrol/combat, a civilian ship is purpose designed for other tasks and as such would be most likely performing such tasks: during a Sathar war a freighter would be involved in transporting much needed supplies to a ravaged world, a liner could be involved in transporting refugees out of a ravaged world, a scout ship would be out gathering intelligence, etc so they wouldn't exactly be hanging around with a task force just waiting for the worms to pop up for a fight. In other words, their wartime duties would not differ much from peace time operations, although the possibility of combat increases during war these craft would be seeking a fight in much the same manner despite the conditions.

So while Terl's 50 merchant vessel scenario was resolved in a realistic manner, I just don't see 50 freight haulers assembled in one system as a realistic scenario...most of those craft would be out and about moving weapons and vehicles and ship parts and medical supplies etc to places where they are needed instead. Realistically you might have three to five freighters in various stages of docking or loading/unloading cargo when the attack on the station arrives that could be mustered, with only the undocked craft ready to fight right away as the loaders/unloaders prepare for take off (as well as yielding to outbound military craft before launching as well).

In fact the only sathar war scenario I see plausible where 50 civilian ships would be gathered is if the UPF was clinging to one final system that the worms haven't conquered, in which case all those civilian craft would be huddled together with survivng warships for a "do or die/one last stand" maneuver.

jedion357 wrote:
you could just not roll at all! if the chance to hit is 60% then 60% of the 50 LBs hit which would be 30 hits and if you dont wish to roll the damage dice then apply the bell curve and make each shot count at 5 or 6 under the basic rules for KH.


While I've used that premise often enough for defending troop versus invading troop resolutions where everyone is skilled & equipped the same (both in D&D and SF), considering that there are range modifiers it doesn't quite work out the same in KH...that base 60% to hit presumes point blank range, so unless all 50 ships were attacking at point blank you need to figure average range in as well...so if the avarage range were 4 hexes than I would have no problem with 40% (60-20 for range diffusion) of the shots hitting their targets.
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TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
April 15, 2009 - 7:34pm
You are right, there probably wouldn't be that many that would be available to help out as they would be busy doing their job, hauling freight.

In truth, the number available depends on what you have as the ship density of the Frontier.  If you only had dozens of ships coming or going per day in any given system, there wouldn't be that many around to help.  If, on the other hand, you have thousands of ships coming and going into a system on any given day (a high ship density) then it is possible that there might be at least 40 or 50 armed merchants nearby when the Sathar attack that could be mustered into service. If you figure a ship spends 4 days after void entry getting to the planet, 4 days at the station and 4 days leaving, you have 1/3 of the ships in system at the station at any given time.  Of course then you have to consider, how many are armed, how many will answer the call to help, etc. 

In the end it just depends on the flavor of your Frontier.  I actually imagine a fairly busy Frontier (I put 200 ships in orbit around New Pale in my campaign although most of those were shuttles and unarmed ships) but I've never really sat down and thought about it.  I mainly did the scenario just for fun to see what would happen.
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Ascent's picture
Ascent
April 16, 2009 - 12:08pm
Okay, so what would happen if a "general muster" is called? Shadow Shack showed that many would show up only to lend their services, but not for combat. So who would sign up for direct combat in any given system? Are "armed merchants" the only ones? What about a corporation's security forces? What about Mercenary forces? What about smugglers, pirates (particularly those seeking a repreive from prosecution), and private citizens? After all, when the First Sathar War began, there was no UPF. So who answerd the general muster?
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Rum Rogue's picture
Rum Rogue
April 16, 2009 - 1:12pm
Ascent wrote:
Okay, so what would happen if a "general muster" is called? Shadow Shack showed that many would show up only to lend their services, but not for combat. So who would sign up for direct combat in any given system? Are "armed merchants" the only ones? What about a corporation's security forces? What about Mercenary forces? What about smugglers, pirates (particularly those seeking a repreive from prosecution), and private citizens? After all, when the First Sathar War began, there was no UPF. So who answerd the general muster?


I dont see corperate forces showing up enmass until their actual holdings are under direct threat, they will send a token force at first, but will make excuses until the sharp end is in their eyes.
Mercenaries will be where the money is. I can see most of them wanting to join in right away but I can see alot of them getting hired by corperations first.
Known pirates might show up to the fight if their stake in the system was big enough, I can see them brokering a deal to keep them as a unit and do hit-and-run fights.
Smuglers could show up anywhere, I see them as armed escorts for the supply trains.
I can easily see a mix of all parties you mentioned in about every system battle.  I dont see the majority of them joining in droves until the Sathar have taken over numerous systems.

Note: Corperations in my SFU are heaviely influenced by the greedy model set forth in the Aliens rpg unverse. They tend to pinch credits whenever possibly when it comes to funding and providing for UPF forces.  The major mega corps. security forces tend to be a bit better equipped with newer tech than they proved for the UPF.
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