Assault Carriers, part deux

Imperial Lord's picture
Imperial Lord
March 22, 2009 - 9:35am
All this carrier talk has got me thinking about yet another wrinkle in the KH rules:

What about repair of recovered fighters?

My idea is this:  the Assault Carrier can "loan" its own DCR points to any fighters in its bay.  The only problem with this is that what if the fighters just flew in last turn, and the Repair Phase is coming up?  Should a fighter be able to benefit from being in the Carrier bay for just one turn or should it have to be in there for all 3 to get the full benefit of the Carrier DCR assistance?

I would not bother with that and give them the full benefit anyway.  Splitting hairs like that sounds tedious, but it is unrealistic...
Comments:

jedion357's picture
jedion357
March 22, 2009 - 12:35pm
Call it the lucky dog repair phase though a crafty player would ensure docking by lots of fighters just before the repair phase. Though if most of a carriers fighters are shot up than its also likely that the carrier might need its DCR for itself.

I would also say that any ship that was not a purpose built carrier would have extreme difficulty applying its DCR to a parasite warship. Like a large freighter with an externally docked HS2 armed shuttle.
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Will's picture
Will
March 22, 2009 - 1:08pm
I'd say fighters assigned to a full-up carrier would require all three turns docked with their parent craft to be fully repaired(and benefit from carrier DCR assist), fighters not assigned to that particular carrier need 5-6 turns, and any fighter can be repaired in one turn, but gets a max of 50% of the carrier's DCR as an assist.

That being said, just what would be the max DCR benefit that a fighter can get from a carrier? 

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

Will's picture
Will
March 22, 2009 - 1:09pm
I'd say fighters assigned to a full-up carrier would require all three turns docked with their parent craft to be fully repaired(and benefit from carrier DCR assist), fighters not assigned to that particular carrier need 5-6 turns, and any fighter can be repaired in one turn, but gets a max of 50% of the carrier's DCR as an assist.

That being said, just what would be the max DCR loan that a fighter can get from a carrier? 

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

Imperial Lord's picture
Imperial Lord
March 22, 2009 - 3:16pm
By the way, this rule interpretation could also apply to docked ships at Space Stations.

Will's question is worth exploring - just how many points can a fighter receive from a carrier?  Keep in mind that the fighter still has 30 DCR points in and of itself.

I don't think that "assignment" is really an issue here - a fighter is a fighter, and a carrier is a carrier.
In terms of Jedion and the DCR transfer for a non-carrier ship, I would agree - no DCR transfer under any circumstances, at least within the SW2 wargame.  If the referee wanted to have some sort of DCR transfer in the KH RPG, that would be his perogative, but would be unique to that particular scenario.

In regards to the number of turns, this is the rub.  On the one hand, you have realism, which is Will's position, and on the other, you have jedi (and pretty much myself, I think) who don't want to split that hair. 

One thing I don't like with the realistic interpretation is that the fighter receives no benefit to DCR for being in the bay for 1 or 2 turns when they should get something.  Tough to say exactly what without getting into annoying calculations and complications.

One suggestion:  Set a maximum of transferred DCR points based on turns in bay:
1 turn:  up to 20 DCR pts
2 turns: up to 50 DCR pts
3 turns: up to 100 DCR pts (maximum transfer under any circumstances)

This would be in addition to the 30 DCR points of the fighter, which represent automated repair systems that keep functioning and assisting whether docked or not.  The little matrix above could also apply to any ship that is docked at a Space Station.

Again, I am just thinking out loud here.  I think we should try to reconcile complication with realism as best and as simply as possible.

Will's picture
Will
March 22, 2009 - 4:08pm
ImpLord wrote:
I don't think that "assignment" is really an issue here - a fighter is a fighter, and a carrier is a carrier.


Yeah, I guess that would be true. I was thinking that since each military plane(RW)has its own dedicated support crew, they would be more familiar with their assigned bird than they would be with another...also, RW planes in wartime tend to individualize themselves with field-expedient mods, or different weapons loadouts, and such, but that's all just probably overthink on my part.

ImpLord's suggestion sounds good.

ImpLord wrote:
In regards to the number of turns, this is the rub.  On the one hand, you have realism, which is Will's position, and on the other, you have jedi (and pretty much myself, I think) who don't want to split that hair. 

One thing I don't like with the realistic interpretation is that the fighter receives no benefit to DCR for being in the bay for 1 or 2 turns when they should get something.  Tough to say exactly what without getting into annoying calculations and complications.

One suggestion:  Set a maximum of transferred DCR points based on turns in bay:
1 turn:  up to 20 DCR pts
2 turns: up to 50 DCR pts
3 turns: up to 100 DCR pts (maximum transfer under any circumstances)


Not realism so much as game balance...you're right, ImpLord, a fighter should get some benefit from being in the bay for even one turn(a good support crew should be able to rearm, refuel and at least partially refit a fighter in ten minutes), I was just worried about this being a "POOF! You're healed," sort of mechanic.

Your proposed mechanic's a good balance between playability and realism. In fact, I think I'll put it into practice in my RPGs(both SpaceRats and a couple others I'm thinking of getting off the ground sometime this summer) and test to see how it works. 

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
March 22, 2009 - 6:43pm
The only other restriction you might consider is that the carrier can't use more than 1 ADF/MR per turn while working on fighters, otherwise the support crew gets tossed around the hanger a bit too much to be effective
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Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
March 23, 2009 - 5:14am
That's a given (maneuvers while docked), and ditto for the reacquisition phase as well. Otherwise everyone and everything is getting tossed around, including those assault rockets that need to be loaded....yeah that's what I want bouncing around my bay! Reminds me of that old cartoon of the moron straddling a bomb and whacking away at the front of it with a hammer.

I mandate a three turns docked for fighter repair, but only one for rearming. A fighter's minimalist DCR (30) really isn't going to do much on its own, in fact I don't even permit hull damage repair "on the fly" based on that roll...I restrict in flight repairs to those where the ship's computer can reroute power to permit a system to function properly again (such as a damaged drive or weapon). I mean seriously, with a one man crew (the pilot, who is busy flying the thing), how is hull repair going to be enabled in the first place?

To that end, I also permit the host ship to utilize as much of its DCR for fighter repair assuming said fighter is docked for three turns. After all, the each fighter's ground crew should have at least one engineer assigned to effect such repairs, not to mention all the tools and parts etc at their disposal. No reason why the carrier's DCR can't be applied. With multiple fighters needing repair, it gets used up rather quickly anyways...150 divided six ways gives each fighter a base 55% chance (25 from the carrier plus 30 from the fighter) to fix one system or hull repair each. Realistically, after a thirty minute docking period you can expect half of your fighters to end up returning to the battle in the same operational condition they left it in.
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Sargonarhes's picture
Sargonarhes
March 23, 2009 - 12:34pm
Wouldn't a fighter docking with the carrier already expect to get some repairs while they are docked? A fighter's own DCR could be some minor repairs, just not sure what. It's not like SF fighters have an R2 robot onboard to effect some repairs do they? So any other fixes a fighter gets when docked will likely come from the carrier's flight crew, just like a carrier on the seas today. So are the flight crews apart of the ship's damage control or do they just tend to the fighters when they come in?
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Imperial Lord's picture
Imperial Lord
March 23, 2009 - 12:58pm

I agree with you Shadow, but with the following caveat: the fighter should get something for being in the bay for 1 or 2 turns.  That's why I proposed that matrix before.

In regards to Sargon's questions, I would say that the Carrier has the option of repairing itself in the Repair Phase, or doling out it's DCR to the various fighters in its bay - or even both.  It has 150 DCR to work with - that can be distributed in any way according to the little matrix I proposed, with any remaining points going to the repair of the carrier itself.


You can view the "flight crew" as part of a universal damage control "pool" which services the carrier and the fighters.


Another question: can the flighter re-arm and repair in the same turn?  I would say yes, as long as it is not on fire or have its Assault Rocket launcher damaged.


aramis's picture
aramis
March 23, 2009 - 1:54pm
What's the turn length again?


Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
March 23, 2009 - 4:18pm

10 minutes = one KH game turn

I would tend to agree on the "something" for 1-2 turns...but then again that opens up a can of worms: Should other ships also get "something" for 1-2 turns worth of repair efforts? Should an assault scout be given the same opportunity for short order repairs? As long as it works for all craft, I wouldn't have a problem with it. A reduced DCR would make sense, the longer you work on it the better the chance of repairs...so I would offer something like a 25% total DCR for 1 turn of repair, 50% for two, and full DCR application for three turns worth of repair time.


And I don't count rearming towards repair time, that's something the flight crew can perform while the maintenance crew is turning hydrospanners. Even if the launcher is damaged, it can still be rearmed...but naturally those rearmed rockets will be worthless until the launcher is repaired.

I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

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Will's picture
Will
March 23, 2009 - 5:41pm
Sargonarhes wrote:
Wouldn't a fighter docking with the carrier already expect to get some repairs while they are docked? A fighter's own DCR could be some minor repairs, just not sure what. It's not like SF fighters have an R2 robot onboard to effect some repairs do they? So any other fixes a fighter gets when docked will likely come from the carrier's flight crew, just like a carrier on the seas today. So are the flight crews apart of the ship's damage control or do they just tend to the fighters when they come in?


Plane crews are dedicated to the refitting(repair), refuelling and rearming of combatant craft. For game terms, I'd say they're part of the ship's DC resources, because if the carrier takes severe damage, especially damage which jeopardizes flight ops, they're going to be thrown into the overall effort to repair the ship.

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

Imperial Lord's picture
Imperial Lord
March 23, 2009 - 5:59pm
Shadow Shack wrote:

10 minutes = one KH game turn

I would tend to agree on the "something" for 1-2 turns...but then again that opens up a can of worms: Should other ships also get "something" for 1-2 turns worth of repair efforts? Should an assault scout be given the same opportunity for short order repairs? As long as it works for all craft, I wouldn't have a problem with it. A reduced DCR would make sense, the longer you work on it the better the chance of repairs...so I would offer something like a 25% total DCR for 1 turn of repair, 50% for two, and full DCR application for three turns worth of repair time.


And I don't count rearming towards repair time, that's something the flight crew can perform while the maintenance crew is turning hydrospanners. Even if the launcher is damaged, it can still be rearmed...but naturally those rearmed rockets will be worthless until the launcher is repaired.



Indeed they do!  If a capital ship is hit on Turn 1, 2 or 3 they get their DCR roll at the same capacity.  Yet another wrinkle in the KH rules...  The question is not the timing of the roll, only the fact that the fighter does not have to be in the carrier for the whole time to get a roll with the DCR boost when the Repair Phase comes around.

I would have to disagree with you on loading a blasted launcher.  After all, the thing is probably just a fried piece of twisted metal at that point.  How do you load an Assault Rocket into that?

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
March 24, 2009 - 7:52am
I keep forgetting a lot of the canon rules...that "every 3rd turn" repair turn is one I ignore. I mandate that the crew must spend three turns after damage has been accrued in order to effect repairs. It's just more realistic...I mean if you think about it you can go 29 minutes and 57 seconds without taking damage when suddenly a wild laser beam connects, and 3 seconds later the damage is fixed?!? LOL

But in the sense of going by the book, I can see allowing the fighters a full shot at the repairs if they dock before the "repair turn".


Quote:
I would have to disagree with you on loading a blasted launcher.  After all, the thing is probably just a fried piece of twisted metal at that point.  How do you load an Assault Rocket into that?


Depends on the nature of the damage...of course if the repair roll is the automatic slag (99-00) then yes, you're not going to be doing much with it until it gets some serious dry dock time. It also depends on how the referee interprets the damage table, as in "damaged" or "destroyed". I go for the former, although for system hits I make a second d% roll and if doubles comes up then it is considered destroyed but salvageable (meaning the player has to roll d% to determine how much of the price of a replacement system it would cost to fix the existing one) as long as said doubles aren't 9s or 0s, in which case you just simply need to buy an actual replacement system when you dry dock. 

Also noteworthy is exactly how the ref and/or players define the actual weapon system design --- my interpretation of an assault rocket launcher (or a torpedo launcher for that matter) is a single launching mechanism with a magazine. Hence, a fighter has one launcher and a three rocket magazine, the assault scout has a single launcher and a four rocket magazine. So in that vein, you can load the magazine despite operational status of the launcher.

I go by that interpretation due to actual volume as listed on the back couple of pages in the KH Campaign Book...an AR launcher is 10 cubic meters and each rocket is also 10cu.m. If one were to assume each rocket has its own launcher, then yeah...you probably wouldn't be able to arm each launcher if it were damaged. But then again you would also have to explain how 60 cubic meters worth of weaponry fits into a 31 cubic meter hull LOL yeah, even one launcher/3 rocket magazine still goes beyond that...but as the warships definition of "miniaturization technology" goes 40 is still easier to explain than 60.

Which is still a bit of a paradox...obviously the rocket is still 10 cubic meters and three of them take up all but one cubic meter of the hull space. That doesn't leave a lot of room for a drive system, computer, navigation equipment, sensors, or cockpit! Realistically a HS:2 vessel barely has enough volume to contain all of that equipment, let alone weapon systems.

(Alas, I'm starting to ramble on LOL...it's late, the sun is up, and that means it's bedtime)
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

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