 November 29, 2008 - 2:45pm | This discussion began in the general game mechanic thread found here but deserves its own treatment. The current idea forwarded by SmootRK and discussed is as follows: A character has four primary abilities. You roll for each of these abilities, which represents a categoric spread of basic ability. For example, a character with a high Physique score is strong, has appreciable endurance and tolerance to pain, heals quickly, etc. However, players who roll these four abilities can, if desired, provide further definition of the subabilities that comprise those abilities. For example, your character might have an average Physique, but may be slightly above average in muscles (strength) while having a slightly lower endurance (representing lower tolerance to infection perhaps?). The list below represents the ability scores proposed so far: Physique (represents the aspects Strength and Endurance) Dexterity (represents the aspects Agility and Coordination) Intellect (represents the aspects Reason and Wisdom) Personality (represents the aspects Leadership and Willpower) Each of these four ability scores will be rolled in some way. After rolling, players wanting to specialize in one or more aspects of their abilities may do so by shifting +/-10 percentage points among those ability aspects. For instance, a character who has a Dexterity of 55 will have a base 55% chance to succeed in any roll involving agility or coordination. However, the player may envision a character whose agility is average but whose coordination is quite impressive. That player may shift up to 10 points from the agility aspect of Dexterity to the coordination aspect, meaning when rolling against Dexterity when the action involves agility, the chance of success might only be 45%, but when rolling against the coordination aspect of Dexterity the chance of success might be 65%. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 29, 2008 - 2:47pm | SmootRK also suggested possibly considering a third aspect for each ability score. For example: Physique might include "Healing" or maybe some "Toughness"-type third aspect, though I'm not sure what other aspect of Physique exists other than the two we detailed above. Dexterity could include Reaction or simply "Speed" for an individual aspect. Intellect could include "Perception" as a third aspect. Personality could include "Charm" as a third aspect. Comments? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 29, 2008 - 2:50pm | Another idea might be to go simple: Strength Endurance Agility Coordination Speed Perception Reason Wisdom Charm Leadership Willpower The benefit of this is that it's simple... rules don't have to say things like "Have the players make a Dexterity check (or an Agility aspect of Dexterity, if the player defined this)" Or we could group some of them together to make a smaller list? Opinions? Grouped versus ungrouped? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 29, 2008 - 2:52pm | Or even make it ultra-rules-lite... Physique Dexterity Intellect Personality with no further details necessary? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
 November 29, 2008 - 2:57pm | Honestly, IMO I think the 4 might be best, with Optional Sections covering sub-categories or further refinements of the 4. Allows for interchange with original material if desired, while making the game look substantially different (at least at first look), by having only 4 scores instead of x/x scores. <insert witty comment here> |
 November 29, 2008 - 3:01pm | RK's right, four stats would be the way to go...less to remember when refreeing/playing. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
November 29, 2008 - 3:01pm | What about: Strength Stamina Dexterity Reaction Speed Intuition Logic Personality Leadership um... too derivative? Is it sure would make us all feel like home... 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 29, 2008 - 3:04pm | That would work too. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
November 29, 2008 - 3:06pm | That certainly is another way to make the game look different (8 completely separate scores) while still harkening to the original. At least we should reorganize the order... perhaps mental scores first then the physical (just to be different than all the others). roll scores for each - maybe with something like 30 discretionary points to distribute as desired. <insert witty comment here> |
November 29, 2008 - 3:09pm | I was looking online. There is a game that did what we're doing - minus setting. OSRIC, a PDF that gives the old-school gaming experience of AD&D 1st edition. I was looking through it and reading the copyright details and realized that they were able to use the ability scores Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma without any problem. Maybe we could and should just stick with Star Frontiers Ability scores? Paired and all? Or just spread 'em out but keep the order the same since it seems to not be a problem for OSRIC, it shouldn't be a problem for us. Precedence is an amazing thing... 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 29, 2008 - 3:18pm | Even they are aware that they are testing the legal boundaries. That said, they reference game mechanics even older than SF. SF was developed in whole by a true corporation, not a collection of guys in wargame shop back rooms. Subtle differences, but lawyers paint their pictures by detailing all the ways that the game would be identical to the original. Too many similarities and you lose, even if your intentions are not to infringe. fyi, that OSRIC document just got updated to version 2.0 yesterday. And it is a quality production... everything one needs to run AD&D 1e. I was just pimping that product earlier on other forums. <insert witty comment here> |
November 29, 2008 - 3:24pm | Even they are aware that they are testing the legal boundaries. That said, they reference game mechanics even older than SF. SF was developed in whole by a true corporation, not a collection of guys in wargame shop back rooms. Subtle differences, but lawyers paint their pictures by detailing all the ways that the game would be identical to the original. Too many similarities and you lose, even if your intentions are not to infringe. Some very good points. So maybe we can use the same list just rearrange and ungroup them?fyi, that OSRIC document just got updated to version 2.0 yesterday. And it is a quality production... everything one needs to run AD&D 1e. I was just pimping that product earlier on other forums. Intuition Logic Personality Leadership Strength Stamina Dexterity Reaction Speed 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 29, 2008 - 3:42pm | Or break them down like this on the character sheet: "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
November 29, 2008 - 3:47pm | I'd be happy with that, Will. What do you think Smoot? Seems it's just us today who have an opinion :-D 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 29, 2008 - 3:50pm | I like that. Perhaps roll each, and two pools of points to distribute, one for phys and one for mental. Or some sort of draw from the Mental side to boost physical scores and draw from physical abilities in exchange for higher mental scores.... the dumb jock/awkward nerd sort of method. <insert witty comment here> |
November 29, 2008 - 3:52pm | Between holiday and a sick child, I have had the luxury of free time today. I won't be as vocal on many days to come. <insert witty comment here> |
November 29, 2008 - 3:55pm | I much prefer being able to favor/slight one set of attributes over another, with a reasonable limit as to how many points can be transferred this way. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
November 29, 2008 - 4:02pm | Perhaps we do away with rolling for scores, giving everyone median ability scores; then using some mechanic for trading up/down abilities like I just suggested (or another method like the original had). Just throwing some ideas out there. <insert witty comment here> |
November 29, 2008 - 4:05pm | A point-buy system, maybe? "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
November 29, 2008 - 5:36pm | Here's one possible system for character generation: http://starfrontiers.us/node/3316 rough as it is. Feel free to edit or ignore it. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 November 29, 2008 - 5:46pm | One thing to remember is how long it takes to generate a character. Recently I played SW Saga and it took 2 hours to make a character. Although I like the point buy system I would prefer a straight table or a table that lists, Normal, Heroic and Epic stats. |
November 29, 2008 - 6:01pm | One thing to remember is how long it takes to generate a character. Recently I played SW Saga and it took 2 hours to make a character. Although I like the point buy system I would prefer a straight table or a table that lists, Normal, Heroic and Epic stats. Two hours?! Wowzers...sounds like character generation ala GURPS or Cyberpunk. Or even d20/True20. Back on-topic: We certainly can do a straight table simliar to AD, where a given die roll range equals a given stat. Hmmm....a table listing starting Normal, Heroic and Epic characters. Would there be an XP mechanic to increase the scores past starting levels? "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
November 29, 2008 - 6:04pm | Would there be an XP mechanic to increase the scores past starting levels? Possibly. I would also like to see a table to start a character at certain levels. For instance, let's say I'm running a adventure that needs at a minium x-level of this or that. Yes I could offer NPC's but Players might prefer making their own character. I like this option better than GM's saying, here is 500 XP, go make a 3rd level character and be quick about it. :-) |
November 29, 2008 - 6:47pm | Would there be an XP mechanic to increase the scores past starting levels? Possibly. I would also like to see a table to start a character at certain levels. For instance, let's say I'm running a adventure that needs at a minium x-level of this or that. Yes I could offer NPC's but Players might prefer making their own character. I like this option better than GM's saying, here is 500 XP, go make a 3rd level character and be quick about it. :-) Our conversation is all over the place on this... where do we all stand? Separating the physical from the mental is a good idea, but only for organization's sake (and it helps differentiate the system from AD). But as far as generating the scores goes, I personally prefer dice rolling. So should we just have the player roll on the table one at a time, in order, and get what you get? Or should we allow them to roll eight times then arrange as desired? That doesn't take too long, and would allow you to build the character you want out of the hand fate deals you. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 29, 2008 - 6:50pm | Roll eight times and mix and match to taste. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
November 29, 2008 - 6:54pm | You could start making polls or pick a time and start up Chat to discuss. Also, today is Sat and there has been a ton of posting - how much community input do you want before making a decision? |
November 29, 2008 - 7:02pm | You could start making polls or pick a time and start up Chat to discuss. KilljoyAlso, today is Sat and there has been a ton of posting - how much community input do you want before making a decision?  3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 29, 2008 - 7:09pm | So it seems the eight scores (reorganized), roll each. Other stuff can be blocked into optional rules... alternate generation methods, and optional methods for modifying initial stats, and rules for advanced character development. I think I like the idea of pull from physical to enhance mental (and vice-versus)... and I havn't seen it done that way before... so it ought to at least make into an optional rule section. <insert witty comment here> |
November 30, 2008 - 12:51am | As far as definitions go, how does the following sound: Abilities Characters are rated in eight abilities which represent their basic potential and talent. Four of these abilities are categorically physical in nature, while four represent the mental aptitude of the character. They are summarized below: Physical Abilities An ability is physical if it allows the character to interact with the world around him on a physical level. Not all characters in movies or books can do back-flips or walk tightropes, lift ground cycles, or run for extended periods of time without tiring. Physical abilities define the limits of the character's body: what he can and can't do. There are four physical abilities: Strength - this represents raw power and muscle, developed or natural. It allows a character with a high score to punch harder or lift greater weights than his weakling friends. Characters with high strength tend to look the part, having well developed physiques that do not go unnoticed. Strength is a physical ability and is abbreviated STR. Mental Abilities An ability is mental if it is not physical. Mental abilities represent the way in which a character can interact socially or intuitively with the world around him. Just as physical abilities represent the limits of the character to perform physical feats, mental abilities represent the limits of the character's intelligence, perception, gut instincts, and charisma. There are four mental abilities: Intuition - this represents perception and intuition. It allows a character with a high score to sense the presence of an enemy in a concealed location, guess the whereabouts of a proverbial needle in a haystack, or sense the weak spot in an enemy robot's defenses. Characters with high ratings in intuition tend not to be surprised in ambush situations and are often sent ahead of a group to scout for his dull-witted friends. Intuition is a mental ability and is abbreviated INT. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
 November 30, 2008 - 8:44am | Looks good to me. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
November 30, 2008 - 8:49am | I like it. Well written. Perhaps we can use a couple of alternate terms though. Reaction Speed comes to mind because it is two words while all the rest are singles. Intuition also comes to mind because of its 3-letter abbreviation... to those who do multiple games, it looks at first glance to be INTelligence. Of course Endurance could easily be a synonym for STA, and it eliminates the two Physique related terms starting with the same letter. If we choose well, we could get the abbreviations down to 1 letter, which would be yet another way to make the game 'seem' different.... just words and abbreviations anyhow, why not change to add yet another layer of 'how we are doing a different game'. <insert witty comment here> |
