 March 27, 2008 - 5:24pm | I was wondering why cargo transports all have to carry their cargo internally. Why aren't large cargos handled like barges or tractor trailers. The cargo would be put in a cargo container which would be lifted off world some kind of atmospheric transport. Then they would be lined up and tied together for a cargo engine to push to the destination. The ship itself would be just a small crew compartment, and some big mama jama engines. The hauling capacity would only be limited by the size of the engines and the weight of the cargo in the containers. Now a ship like this would be very vulnerable to pirates. It would not be very maneuverable at all, and it would be only very lightly armed because of the small size of the ship itself. So, to haul through dangerous space, it would need some kind of an escort. Though it might make for a good trap to have a couple of the cargo containers loaded with rocket or laser batteries.  |
 March 27, 2008 - 5:32pm | There has actually been a few designs like that by the community. Also, cargo ships, by nature, whether the cargo is internal or external, will be vulnerable to pirates. Feel free to design one. :) |
 April 3, 2008 - 5:28pm | Ever see the movie Space Truckers? Yeah I know it's cheezy, but you could just link cargo pods to a tow frame of a freighter. The ships should still be limited by it's HS because that's all it's rated to move. Unless you want a ship that hauls cargo both internally and externally. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
April 4, 2008 - 5:52pm | I was thinking similarly. You have engine mounts and computers for a particular hull size. Then it could haul an amount of cargo equiviliant to say 1.2 x the amount of cargo (random number, not married to it at all) that would go in a ship of the same hull size that hauls internally. The crew compliment would be smaller and the life support requirements would be as well. |
 April 4, 2008 - 7:02pm | I think that internal cargo hauling provides an extra measure of protection -- radiation, debris, and whatnot. But, modular cargo pods with sufficiently tough structure could also be a good way to go. If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. -- Carl Sagan |
 April 4, 2008 - 9:15pm | The few Knight Hawks adventures out there seem to indicate that cargo is storedinternally, but I think the adventure Bugs in the System has a cargo ship with externall cargo. basicaly its just a stick between the crew section and the engines. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
 April 10, 2008 - 12:36pm | Some similar concepts... The Nostromo (Alien) was a big tug that was towing a giant petroleum refining complex. The idea of the freighter not literally being loaded with boxes but rather towing a large item not necessarily accessible from the ship itself. The ships in 2300AD GDW Game (and probably still in 2320AD -- forget which company is doing this) -- they had modular cargo pods attached to the freighters. Modules for some of the ships were sized perfectly to fit on ground transport craft. |
 April 10, 2008 - 6:50pm | In space it would be cost efficient for big corporations to haul freight externally. The «train» comes to mind : A locomotive ship with containers in tow. These XLarge ships would probably be protected by a small fleet of private security patrol fighters. «Language is a virus from outer space» William S. Burroughs |
April 11, 2008 - 6:47pm | Yes, I'm thinking like river barges or tractor trailers. However the actual mass of the vessel would be very small compared to the hull size normally required to have engines like this would require. |
April 14, 2008 - 10:06am | Automated cargo transports. Engines using robot pilots "pick up" the cargo after it's lifted from a planets surface and deliver it to the destination. :-) |
 April 15, 2008 - 7:29am | What about micro meteors and other space junk? Doesn't the cargo need to be stored internally to avoid being blasted by that stuff? Then also there are dust clouds and radiation bursts. You don't want your shipment of widgets glowing when you get to the station... |
April 15, 2008 - 8:03am | What about micro meteors and other space junk? Doesn't the cargo need to be stored internally to avoid being blasted by that stuff? Perhaps around a planet or other object that has a gravity well that would pull that stuff in... but in space I wouldn't think so - if it was true we would here more stories from the space lanes that your spacecraft has been pounded by sand and needs a paint job. IMHO Then also there are dust clouds and radiation bursts. You don't want your shipment of widgets glowing when you get to the station... Are you saying that metal hulls protect against such without shields? |
April 15, 2008 - 8:09am | Sure - the hulls are made of multiple layers of materials that are resistant to all sorts of stuff. Think of a very advanced form of the Chobham armor that is on the M1 Abrams tank. These materials provide protection against all sorts of yucky cosmic rays. |
April 15, 2008 - 8:12am | My Darth Vader has "dark armor" which reduces damage by 10. I'm picking up what your laying down.  |
April 15, 2008 - 4:39pm | I was thinking that the cargo would be in cargo containers like trailers from trucks. They could be built to different specs depending on the needs of the cargo. |
April 16, 2008 - 8:42am | Yeah Oghma. Some sort of standardized, space-yuck resistant container. My point was that you can't just strap your widgets to the hull of your ship and start blasting off into space. Your cargo, in that case, will arrive as irradiated swiss cheese. |
 April 16, 2008 - 3:43pm | Automated cargo transports. Engines using robot pilots "pick up" the cargo after it's lifted from a planets surface and deliver it to the destination. :-) If I'm not mistaken, the ISS uses Progess rockets(remotely-controlled Soyuz capsules)from Interkosmos for just this purpose. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
April 17, 2008 - 3:58am | Yeah Oghma. Some sort of standardized, space-yuck resistant container. In fact, different compagnies would probably compete over that market. Irradiation protection level, micro-meteorite resistance, secure against tempering, pirate proof, etc. My bet is that privateers would own freighters and carry containers, under contract, for competing container brokers. Same as today with truckers....! «Language is a virus from outer space» William S. Burroughs |
April 18, 2008 - 8:56am | Actually, the idea of self contained cargo pods has additional value in that ships would not have to place heavy shielding around the whole cargo area because some cargos may not need to be protected at such high ratings. Organics would need heavy shielding and may be transported internally in freighters, but raw ore would not need such protection (perhaps only minimal radiation shielding to prevent the ore irradiated???). These variants of shielding would depend on the nature of this technology in your campaign. If the materials/forcefields/etc ... that exist in your campaign are cheap, non-bulky, and not very heavy, everything may be shielding to a high standard. But if the materials to shield are heavy and get heavier the more protection you need, or are costly, etc ... , traders will only get the shipping container only with the level of shielding they need. This would open up some interesting/neat gaming possibilities. The characters are hired to transport 12 cargo pods of minimal shielding (say Level 1 protection - raw ore, etc ...), but during an unexpected maintenance issue on the ship, an EVA repair on the vessel itself leads the crew to discover one of the pods is listed as Level 1 protection, but is really Level 5 - Organic). What is it? What do they do? Especially more interesting IF cargo pods cannot be accessed from the ship. Cutting in and exposing what is inside to vaccum wouldn't be good ... |
April 18, 2008 - 9:39am | There are many good ideas and possibilities here. I think Oghma's original point has withstood the scrutiny of the thread. Specialized/protected external containers do make sense. Plus, with the external container you get to put lots of huge robotic arms all over the place - even folding out from within ships. Huge robotic arms are cool. Every single Docking Bay in the Frontier would have to have at least one. So to answer the original question - when would a "cargo hold" actually come into play? There is only one situation I can think the hold would be needed - security. "Special" cargoes would go in there, surrounded with whatever security measures were deemed necessary. Maybe vehicles would have an easier time driving up a ramp and parking in a hold than going into a cargo container? Parts of cargo holds could also be used as ships stores, workshops, or even emergency medical triage or living quarters for refugees. My point here is that internal cargo holds should not be eliminated. |
 April 18, 2008 - 10:18am | In my campaigns, there are two designs for cargo ships. First is a flat bed with cockpit/crew section built off to one side (in two variants, built over it like the big speaker/score box over an NBA court). Then the engines are built off the stern. Second one is essentially a rectangle. Cockpit/crew area is really a square with a long rectangular tube running down to the engineering / engine compartment. Cargo containers are attached to the long rectangular tube. The containers contain all the necessary shielding from micro meteors, cosmic rays etc. I have drawings of all this, but have never scanned them in (all this was created before PC's could actually do a lot of this or before I could actualy afford one). I'm curious what is a good program for designing deck plans as well as the exteriors of space/star ships? Would something like Dungini work? (Do not own any cartography or floor plan software). Love this site. edit: Stupid question. how do I put blank lines? Normal HTML codes? |
April 19, 2008 - 5:43pm | Well, I've never tried it, but Visio might be good for making floor plans. They have plenty of templates for office floor plans and houses. Or, a home design software might work as well. Maybe even better. I don't think this system would replace all cargo transport. There would still be situations where a cargo transport would need to make planetfall and pick stuff up. Think Han Solo, or the interglactic moving company, or a high secruity transportation of art works. This idea was mainly targeted at carrying large quantities of packages (FedEx), or bulk shipments of things like ore, or cars, factory equipment, ship drives, etc. |
 April 19, 2008 - 11:20pm | Most star frontiers vessels use thrust based gravity simulation, therefore, "up" is the direction of accelleration. For the kinds of deck plans being done, any decent draw program should work... and the decks should stack into a skyscraper type configuration on anything bigger than about size 3. Visio has often been used for deckplans by certain Traveller gearheads. CC2/CC3 works well, any decent CAD program also works well. (for mac users, cadintosh isn't terribly expensive, and works nicely. CC2 runs in parallels just fine; cc3 can't be fully updated.) |
April 20, 2008 - 8:15am | I use Dungeon Crafter 1. Its freeware that uses tiles of 20x20 pixels. Place em how you want. Its pretty limited, but if you have better artistic abilities than me, you can easily make your own tile sets. The best I can do is slightly modify existing ones. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
 April 29, 2008 - 7:41pm | I was drafting a container ship but never got it finished...basing it loosely from the deckplans from the interior of Warriors of White Light module. Essentially I had three sizes and each one could attach so many modules to the universal mounting docks, with cargo modules ranging from one to five cargo units capacity. In addition, the ship's performance would vary depending on load...so if being pursued the craft could effectively drop a container to gain speed. |
April 30, 2008 - 5:44pm | I hadn't thought about dumping cargo, but that would be a neat twist. I still think the turn rate would suck no matter what the load was, but the would rock if it was empty. |
May 1, 2008 - 1:03pm | It does add a certain degree of realism...of my three craft I do have a HS:4 version finished (at least mostly draftedout on graph paper anyways) that can affix cargo modules ranging in size from one to five unit containers, sporting "B" class drives that can accomodate up to 6 units of cargo. Unladen it sports serious performance (ADF/MR: 6 & 4) but fully loaded it drops to something like 2/2. I also gave them fewer hull points and smaller DCR scores, with each container size addin more points and DCR to the overall total. So there's a balanced set of benefits and restrictions with every combination. P.S. to the OP --- the HS:10 East Indiaman trader as presented in Dragon/Ares etc was a container ship sporting nine 1-unit cargo pods that could be offloaded by the ship's cargo arm at port, swapping a full container for a fresh one rather than emptying the contents of the hold and refilling at each stop. |
