 October 17, 2007 - 11:43pm | I don't think the problem is Zeb's. As I've demonstrated with the AER
(Anniversary Edition), there's very little difference between Zeb's and
Alpha Dawn. What Zeb's did was bundle Kimber's Dragon Magazine articles
with Alpha Dawn and provide the Column Shift mechanic, individualized
skills, an extended Timeline, and 4 new races (granted, badly done
races). Though the skills were multiplied, the skills mechanic has more
freedom, so I don't really see it as compounding the problem. A little
cosmetic adjustment to the new races provided and use the timeline and
it's still Star Frontiers. Why? Because all it did was add to the story
line. You can still use the Alpha Dawn mechanics with it (as I've done
with AER). Mechanically is the only way that Zeb's messed with the Star
Frontiers game system, but it didn't do it in an entirely incompatable
way. Dump the Zeb's mechanics and the game is still playable as Star
Frontiers. It wasn't just that, Corjay. Zebs was supposed to help Star Frontiers,
to be a new edition, at a time when sci-fi gaming was beginning to
blossom and Traveller was taking the spotlight as the hard-science
supergame. Some of the ideas were great - but it fell so short of all
of our expectations for many reasons: a modified game mechanic that
nobody liked, artwork that fell way short of what we were used to and
what Traveller was putting out, a skill system that went for quantity
rather than quality, races that were just so silly they were unplayable
- even my 7 year old thinks they're dumb, etc. It's not that it's
unsalvagable -- I get that. It's that it was such a dissappointment we
just wish it was never put out. It did kill the line. After
lackluster interest in that book, TSR didn't publish any further SF
material, and even Dragon Magazine halted its sci-fi section. I fully understand why people rank on the mechanics and the races, but not anything else. Except for the mechanics, what Kimber did with Zeb's is basically what is happening in the pages of the Frontiersman. To me, it's like that one Highlander movie that took place in the future: it just should never have been made, and it's better to pretend it wasn't -- just take what few salvagable elements it had that were good and ignore it entirely. That's the opinion most StarFrontiers gamers take. The disappointment is surely understandable, but it has been 22 years, and the community is fragmented (albeit a small fragment regarding Zeb's, but a fragment all the same), and there is some good stuff there that gets used today even by professed Zeb's haters (as Bill conceded in the Highlander analogy). The Mentalist skills were provided at the end of Alpha Dawn Remastered, because it is recognized that some would appreciate it and that it is actually done in a Star Frontiersish way. I like to look at what is salvageable even from those things I don't like. Here's a list of things I have found exceptionally salvageable: 1. Out of the six main pieces of art, outside of the races and diagrams, four were well done: The front page (which everybody loves), p.26, p.62, p.87, then there's the logos of the Mega-corporations and the Cadrés and Cults. 2. The skills list is definitely unnecessarily extensive, but the skills mechanic only needs a minor adjustment to be exceptional on its own, or no adjustment if taken in tandem with the original skills of Alpha Dawn (as demonstrated in the option in the AER). 3. Some skills were understandably, if unnecessarily, merged, keeping the number lower than it could have been, but useful for streamlining the classic game if those mergers are applied to Alpha Dawn. 4. Provide vehicle piloting skills 5. Made weapons skills more easily accessible 6. Separated the environmental skills from the science skills. 7. The Mega-corporations (originally in Dragon Magazine) 8. Cadrés and Cults (originally in Dragon Magazine) 9. Variety of Rafflurs (originally in Ares; though I still prefer the proton beam designation) 10. The Timeline (Just need to correct the Vrusk over Dralasite error; see the AER for solution) 11. Breakdown of planets of the Frontier 12. Lots of new equipment. 13. Maintains the flavor, story, and original mechanics of Star Frontiers, with the exception of skills and the Column Shift mechanic. 14. Mentalist needs some adjustment, but is playable. 15. I think the Osakar and Mechanon need little modification and are original (it was the artwork alone that failed these two races), but that's my opinion. The Ifshnit doesn't actually match its artwork, and it is the artwork that has colored people's interpretation of the Ifshnit and how they play them. The Humma are the ones requiring the most salvage, but are salvageable with a little cosmetic adjustment in its description. I haven't personally found fault with these races as races. It is strictly their appearance that proves unpalatable and that is the fault of poor art. As a side note, we are currently working on cybernetics and mutations which were originally planned by Kimber Eastland to be a Zeb's Volume II. What exactly is hated: 1. The Column Shift mechanic. The game is already simple, and I've studied this system backwards and forwards and can say with confidence that you trade die rolling for table referencing. I and most people will take the die rolling any day. It also oversimplifies damage, providing less variety and too standardized. 2. Too many skills. 3. Bad Diagrams 4. Mentalist abilities are hated only by some, others can take it or leave it, and others love it. 5. The Ifshnit and the Humma are tired and childish respectively. Some dislike the Osakar, but mostly due to artistic representation, and the only thing I ever hear against the Mechanon is the art. 6. The book was poorly edited and designed. 7. Came at a time when quality over quanity was being stressed by other gaming companies but failed in this volume. I view it from the standpoint that if Zeb's came first, the same view and arguments could have been made toward Alpha Dawn (save for the artwork, but only barely). This argument is temporal and not mechanically or aesthetically related. As you can see, there's actually quite a lot that is salvageable, and indeed has become a large part of the Star Frontiers experience. If you replace the art with quality images and turn the unpalatable mechanics (Column Shift Mechanic and extra skills) into mere options, and apply better editing and design, the book is easily turned into something worth using. |
January 7, 2008 - 11:59pm | Ah, yes. It was Lorraine, not Penny Petticord.....must remember her name from something else...possibly the personal communication that Pierre was having with her. That's not the whole story. If you read my interview with Steve Winter in SFman #7, you'll see that SF was dumped because Zeb's was a massive failure. A bleeding cow in its own right. Later, they dumped all their d100 products because they wanted to solidify their game mechanics to advance one game design more rapidly to take their place once again at the top of the game market. They had a specific image of the direction they wanted the company to go, and today we see that image fulfilled in WOTC.As far as "well, BR came out 3 years after Zeb's" I wonder if you've worked in publishing before. :) From the date of the first Zeb publishing, it would take a while to create a new game, get all the licensing legal crap resolved, etc. You may not think BR and SF are similar. In fact I'd guess that's pretty much a given, since you're here. But that doesn't mean that the marketing drones don't look and say "hey, we've got too many "Science Fiction" games, which should we cut?" And if Lorriane's an inheritor/connected of the BR empire, I guess I see it as pretty hard to read any other way.... roymeo |
 January 26, 2008 - 4:38am | Gygax was gone by 1985 and had nothing to do with Zebs or the demise of Star Frontiers. If anything, no future versions of Zebs came out *after* he left, leaving the conversion from AD to Zebs unfinished. From the Wiki (which is actually a lot nicer about portraying all the stuff that went down and caused the downfall of TSR): Gary Gygax left TSR in 1985 during changes in TSR's management. This development arose while Gary was preoccupied with making the CBS cartoon series Dungeons & Dragons.
Lorraine Williams tanked the company, produced a terrible 2nd edition of AD&D (don't get me started on this one!), and was in control when the decision to can SF was made (and when Buck Rogers became *the* supported sci-fi game in TSR, over Star Frontiers and Gamma World.) And YES, Lorrain Williams was connected to Buck Rogers by family. From the Wiki: Buck Rogers was a fictional character created in 1928 by Philip Nowlan. A Buck Rogers comic strip written by Nowlan was syndicated by John Dille (who may have contributed the nickname "Buck" to the character). Ownership of Buck Rogers and other works passed into the hands of the Dille Family Trust. In the 1980s, John Dille's granddaughter, Lorraine Williams, was the president of TSR. In that decade, business for TSR was booming, mainly as a result of their popular RPG, Dungeons & Dragons. Lorraine Williams decided to merge Buck Rogers and D&D to make the XXVc game setting, which came out in 1990 and was based on the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Second Edition rules, but there are some small differences. It was a new incarnation of the Buck Rogers world created by William's brother, Frank Dille. Its universe was limited to the solar system, and revolved heavily around interplanetary travel and terraforming. A few dozen expansion modules were published, as well as a line of novels and graphic novels.
So really, it's a matter of connecting the dots to see who and where to demise of TSR, 1st Edition AD&D, Star Frontiers, and Gamma World came from. |
 January 26, 2008 - 6:37am | I kinda like Humma.....who doesn't love Klingon Kangaroos? Mess with the fish....you get the bone!!! |
 January 26, 2008 - 7:53am | So really, it's a matter of connecting the dots to see who and where to demise of TSR, 1st Edition AD&D, Star Frontiers, and Gamma World came from. Sathar infiltrators that escaped from Area 51?  Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
 January 26, 2008 - 11:36am | Although Zeb's was not the great addition to SF that was expected, it was a great buffet of take it, use, or forget about it. Sergeant |
 January 28, 2008 - 11:26pm | Sergeant - I think that is the best way to regard Zebs. A great buffet of take it, use it, or forget about it - EXACTLY. Take what you want, and move on from there. A good referee knows what he and his players want. Make it so. |
 March 10, 2008 - 11:47am | Huma became my favorite immedeatly. Anyone who knows Fafhd can tell you that. I loved the new gear too. I allow players to choose either character generation system. I love the individuality allowed by the ZG system. I justify it in the game by saying the AD system characters grew up on a more stringently controlled planet like the home of GodCo or one of the MegaCorp planets, or those who were educated by a Mega. The ZG generated characters grew up on freer worlds like Prenglar, Morgaine's World, or to an extent Clairion (Gollywog if you want to bug them there). That way, there are much more individualized characters. I make those who choose ZG rules also use them to advance. It's a little more expensive in XP, but worth it if you don;t want a cookie cutter PC. I intensly LOATHE the mentalist. I never even read it enough to run it and don't allow it in my games. However, I loved all the new gear. Rafflurs, helment grenade launchers, flit boards!! GREAT!! I don't try to fiddle with the mechanics, just convert the gear to AD specs. I kinda liked the chart resolution system, but never used it. FIAWOL
TANSTAAFL!! |
March 10, 2008 - 7:25pm | Regarding the ZG vs. AD, in AER I've included both options and a third
option for mixing those two systems that still needs to be playtested.
The effect of that is that you can use the AD skill groupings as a
starting point for your characters, keeping skill costs low, and then use ZG's individual skills option to diversify
the character. If that sounds interesting or doable, it would be great if you would give it a run. ZG put the new races from 60 f.y. on, so that leaves the first Sathar war era to run a game without those races. (I highlighted that division in AER.) For the new books, people were amenable to moving Mentalists to the new Gamma Dawn Sourcebook. (However, don't let Gamma Dawn's focus on things like mutants and Mentalists discourage the scientifically-minded from helping out with that one. There's still a lot of science to be had there in the way of the bioware subject.) |
March 17, 2008 - 10:08am | But the Capellan Free Merchants were there Before! that, so there must have been some knowledge earlier. Besides, doesn't that say the first UPF ships go to the Rim? That doesn't say that thwe Rim Races didn't come to the Frontier earlier either. And, couldn't that mean oficial UPF shipsa like Space Fleet or an ambassador? Couldn't individuals have gone there on their own? Right after the events in the SF0-1-2 series Crash, Starspawn, of Volturnus stuff? Surly someone would have charted the rout before the first official contact? IDK, but I think there's lots of wiggle room there. ;> FIAWOL
TANSTAAFL!! |
March 17, 2008 - 10:34am | But the Capellan Free Merchants were there Before! Where? I searched Alpha Dawn and see no mention of Capella or Capellan Free Merchants until Knight Hawks, which covers the Second Sathar War.that, so there must have been some knowledge earlier. In the Zeb's Timeline, though it claims they introduced themselves in 5
fy, they don't do anything again until between 50-60 fy. Ifshnits aren't
mentioned directly in the Timeline until 86 fy.Besides, doesn't that say the first UPF ships go to the Rim? That doesn't say that thwe Rim Races didn't come to the Frontier earlier either. And, couldn't that mean oficial UPF shipsa like Space Fleet or an ambassador? Couldn't individuals have gone there on their own? Right after the events in the SF0-1-2 series Crash, Starspawn, of Volturnus stuff? Surly someone would have charted the rout before the first official contact? Such may have been, but they were not integrated into Frontier society until the Second Sathar War.As you can see, these things are not contradictory to defining them with the Second Sathar War. IDK, but I think there's lots of wiggle room there. ;> There is, but as the AER caretaker, I'll be maintaining the flavor of the original game as printed and giving a chance to the purists who refuse to accept Zeb's to compartmentalize the races in this way for their comfort. I don't want to alienate these players, but want to respect their concerns. Besides, this compartmentalization does not prevent lovers of Zeb's from including those races during the preceding time if they want to. |
March 17, 2008 - 10:36am | By the way, Zeb's contradicts Knight Hawks concerning the origins of the Capellan Free Merchants. I will be correcting the Timeline to read "Ifshnits" instead of "Capellan Free Merchants". |
 March 21, 2008 - 3:24pm | For me, Zebs was a universal improvement over AD. I like the chart mechanism; I loved it in MSH and AMSH, too. I like the new races. Especially the Humma and Osakar. I like the expanded space map. I like the mentalist system. I was sorely frustrated that there was no similar treatment for KH issues. I disliked the PSA system from 1st play. I disliked the high prerequisites for KH skills. I disliked the lack of creative room in AD. So much so, that until Zeb's, I didn't buy AD or KH. (I had friends who had them.) Heck, I'll play alternity before using the PSA system. Love the setting, hate the rules for AD & KH. I think, however, the real problem with Zebs is that it was an accessory, rather than a second edition. |
March 21, 2008 - 4:15pm | On that last statement, everyone believed it to be a second edition despite it being an accessory. Zeb's flopped for many reasons. It appeared to drastically change an established game and didn't give clear direction about how it was meant to be treated. It relied on AD, but replaced much of its mechanics. It had bad art for the races. It had a bad timeline. It was poorly arranged and poorly explained. I think it would have received better attention if it had been given stats for both AD and the Column Shift Resolution System, which would have also better presented it as an accessory. To most people it was a second edition that pretended to be an accessory. Star Frontiers had a lot of faithful fans and Zeb's crashed the system. Without the Column Shift Resolution Mechanic, the bad art for the races, or the incorrect timeline, I think it would have done just fine. If instead it was packaged as a second edition, given better art for the races, and removed its reliance on AD, it would also have done well. |
